Human Terrain System Documentary

[Kilted Heathen]

Somewhere in that shit-hole is a ten year old boy who has charisma and pure balls. A natural leader. When he's a grown man he'll be listened to. When he's 18 and AQ tries to recruit him to blow himself up he's likely to pull out his fucking i-phone and show them a pic of a Japanese school-girl with her knickers around her ankles and say "what the fuck do I need dead virgins for again?". He will have a following of like-minded young-bloods who will have a clear-minded understanding of the way forward toward a better life.

He is the Wallace of the Mid-East and he's on his way.

He's the little bastard we're fighting for.

[DrD]

Somewhere in that shit-hole is a ten year old boy who has charisma and pure balls. A natural leader. When he's a grown man he'll be listened to. When he's 18 and AQ tries to recruit him to blow himself up he's likely to pull out his fucking i-phone and show them a pic of a Japanese school-girl with her knickers around her ankles and say "what the fuck do I need dead virgins for again?". He will have a following of like-minded young-bloods who will have a clear-minded understanding of the way forward toward a better life.

He is the Wallace of the Mid-East and he's on his way.

He's the little bastard we're fighting for.

That is the one of the best things I have read in a long ass time, Ranger Kilted Heathen. Thank you for posting it. :D

[panthersix]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSX4ZfFG ... re=channel

how would HTT data and recommended techniques change the scenario depicted in that video?

3. Photo souvenirs? Are you fucking kidding me?

I agree with you 100%, but if the new culture of being culturally aware doesn't begin in basic training and receive a lot of reinforcement on a daily basis, then "pfft" it really doesn't matter how much you study the shit out of and spend $400 million on it.

American's are culturally unaware of the subtle differences between hard core yankees and true southerners....bless their hearts

[Nomad]

You're oversimplifying something quite complex. The goal is not to turn them into a US metropolitan style culture.

Obviously not, Ranger Nomad. Civilization approaching anything we have won't happen any time soon, and probably none of us will ever be around to see it.

That's ridiculous. One has nothing to do with the other. You miss out on a lot of valuable information if you just go in and beat people down.

And of course sources have to be developed, but how trustworthy are they at any given time?

Given that the definition of HTS is to provide military commanders and staff with an understanding of the local population by conducting research, interpreting, and archiving cultural information and knowledge ... how much really valuable information will those teams provide, in the long run?!

I agree with Pastor ... Fear in any culture is an excellent bridge builder and even cave dwellers know the thought "if I fuck with them I get fileted".

You're getting second and third hand hearsay, more than likely from guys who don't have any involvement in the program.

Probably not - I can't and won't ask my MiTT a question like that.

But, I DO have firsthand experience with "social scientists" as both a student and a coworker, and neither of those experiences engender much respect for their ability to comprehend how their theories work in the real world.

And even if it is second or third hand experience, just being there most likely makes the boots a great deal more qualified on appropriate methods for dealing with the local population than academic theory.

So in regards to your expectations...how should the war in Afghanistan be fought? How can we improve on Iraq? How do you suggest building rapport with the LNs?

As to your second comment, how trustworthy are sources? I guess it would depend on a multitude of factors, influences and motivations. Not sure where you're going with that train of thought though because again, it is completely irrelevant. You can vet your sources through a variety of means. Some will be developed, others terminated. But please explain to me how you can even begin to form someone as an asset if you don't make contact with the local population...and I'm not talking about someone doing a ballistic breach on your front door at 0300, because that sure as shit didn't work in Anbar, did it?

Academic theory is neither here nor there. In the end it is up to the commander to implement the tools he's getting from his HTT teams. He can decide to not use it and proceed with his plan, he can alter the plan to allow consideration to a certain tribe etc. So academics do have a place in this. Joe is not going to be able to speak much of the language in the theatre he operates in. To Joe "Hadji" is a complete anomaly. He cannot begin to understand what motivates him and Joe sure as shit isn't going to build any rapport with a tribal leader. It's not Joe's job and when Joe does that he tends to fuck it up. So having someone on the ground, like a mature solid ODA that isn't dying to put on more mag pouches and instead does FID and MEDCAPs, or an HTT that goes out and drinks Chai with the locals until their teeth rott and in the process gains valuable insight into the local populations, is invaluable.

As for the intel that they can collect doing so, with people who probably speak the language, are aware of the fact that there are hierarchies in the tribal system etc...I think I'd rather let someone more mature do that. Regarding what they will get from it, how can you even judge the outcome? ANYTHING gained is an advantage. Collecting, the vetting and later producing actionable intel is the goal. I simply don't think you understand what intel collection actually is. It's not "the location of a nuke in the Bekkah valley" as much as it is getting one person to give us a tidbit of information on another one, then corroborating it, putting it together and using it to fill previous gaps in our understanding.

Since I've spent the better part of the last six years in Iraq, I think I have a fair understanding of what works and what does not work. The majority of all Americans who are in Iraq have not lived outside the confinement of a military base and were never privy to seeing the inner workings of the country, on the local tribal and political level. Basically if you don't understand who you are dealing with and all the nuances that comprise the history of the people you're daily interaction is based on then you're ineffective. Sure, you can smash them to bits and that'll temporarily alleviate some of the problems but long term you want to understand them.

[Kilted Heathen]

Absolutely!

It ain't the bayonet...it's where we stick it.

[Nomad]

Ranger Nomad. This thread is about Human Terrain Systems, and academics IS the point – do social scientists have a place in a military operation, in a war zone. Hearing the experiences of the warriors doing a variety of jobs in both Iraq and Afghanistan, no – they don’t. I agree with these warriors.

You're still missing the main reason for the teams even existing. There was and is a reason for the scientists to be a part of our strategy in the conflicts. They do not inhibit anyone's ability to complete the mission. They offer alternative means of getting objectives completed. In the end it is up to the commander to make the final decision on their input.

So much of this argument for these teams appears to belittle the job that the warriors there right now are doing, from a military perspective, using their training and experience. Why overlay that with a civilian-academic-social scientist liberal agenda? ....Great. Let the academics-social scientists do their research and archiving, just keep them out of the way of the warriors who need to fight and get the job done.

No one is advocating scientists over soldiers. They are not mutually exclusive, but work hand in hand to achieve goals our commanders set. Why is that so hard to understand? The HTTs do not have the power to tell a BSCO to halt operations. They can recommend against certain actions and advocate alternative COAs, but they are not the driving force in our GWOT.

The fact that both parties have differing opinions is based on their backgrounds. The goal is to get as much input as possible and formulate a coherent strategy with all available options considered.

It's not black and white. Not even close. You're not discussing HTTs running the war or USMIL running the war. The idea is to succeed, not bicker.

If you haven't been there and dealt with the dynamics you are academically dissecting right now, based on theoretical knowledge, then I can't expect you to even in the least bit comprehend what life actually is like there and what all it takes to succeed.

[Nomad]

Absolutely!

It ain't the bayonet...it's where we stick it.

Agree. You get it.

Or we could of course just nuke them, because that would fix all our woes...

[panthersix]

I was a CA Team Leader in Bosnia in '96 and we used to work closely with the S2 to provide a more complete on the ground picture to the CDR. I even started an NGO brunch on Sundays where I'd get the CDR's CCIRL and then try to find out the info from the NGOs while they were stuffing their faces. It was very successful.

I also developed a map of all the villages with the ethnic make up of each, again so we could provide the CDR with a better picture on where "disturbances" would pop up between the Serbs and Muslims.

But none of that trickled down to the individual soldiers. I had to stop our guys waiting while we were in meetings from feeding the dogs the MRE scraps because they were doing it in front of hungry children we weren't allowed to feed, but we were allowed to feed dogs?....an awareness issue.

[Kilted Heathen]

Yes, Ranger Nomad. You're absolutely correct.

Can I make you a sammich?

And THAT sort of smart-assed bullshit just got you nowhere. You feel we're pretty fucking stupid don't you?

Just wasting deployment after deployment and yet still UTTERLY blind to complexities of the situation.

Still...we try.

OH...I can manage my own sammich, thanks.

[Nomad]

Yes, Ranger Nomad. You're absolutely correct.

Can I make you a sammich?

And THAT sort of smart-assed bullshit just got you nowhere. You feel we're pretty fucking stupid don't you?

Just wasting deployment after deployment and yet still UTTERLY blind to complexities of the situation.

Still...we try.

OH...I can manage my own sammich, thanks.

No worries, you're just someone who's been downrange a few times here and there...

[Jim]

I am graciously conceding that you have the benefit of experience, knowledge, etc.

Having spent most of my wars working with someone else's Army, I feel safe in pointing out that there is no substitute for experience. Sadly, all too much of my experience is bad experience.

[Kilted Heathen]

Not at all, Ranger Nomad.

I am not stupid, either, and I do listen to warriors who have done three, four deployments in all capacities. I value their opinion as much as that of anyone on this forum.

Perhaps I am just mistaken that I was able to post an opinion, and you have my deepest apologies for doing so. Sure won't happen again.

I am graciously conceding that you have the benefit of experience, knowledge, etc.

Er...I think I'm the one you're pissed at at the moment. You're confusing me with Nomad who has presented a rather intelligent argument.

Thanks for being gracious though...

[Kilted Heathen]

Not at all, Ranger Nomad.

I am not stupid, either, and I do listen to warriors who have done three, four deployments in all capacities. I value their opinion as much as that of anyone on this forum.

Perhaps I am just mistaken that I was able to post an opinion, and you have my deepest apologies for doing so. Sure won't happen again.

I am graciously conceding that you have the benefit of experience, knowledge, etc.

Er...I think I'm the one you're pissed at at the moment. You're confusing me with Nomad who has presented a rather intelligent argument.

Thanks for being gracious though...

Ranger Kilted Heathen,

No doubt Ranger Nomad presented intelligent argument, but there are some things we're just not going to agree on. Therefore, it was time for me to STFU because I do NOT have his experience.

And no, I am not pissed. My butt's a little scorched, but that'll heal up soon enough.

Now here comes the part where we learn not to get so pissy. One of the panty laced academics that the author of this thread worked with in Afghanistan got her butt scorched too. Some fuckwit threw acid all over her. Didn't heal up though. She's dead. That's experience. Not...listening. Your posts on this matter resemble a case of "compassionate exhaustion". It's the latest. You'll be hearing all about it.

Anyway, it pains me to forego a sterling opportunity to invite somebody to shut the fuck up but in this case I shall.

"Cause I want you to stop being so goddamn pissy and relax.

[panthersix]

http://lavoiestrategique.net/3.cours/3. ... /intro.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

give that look if you can stop spitting on each other for a few minutes :)

[Kilted Heathen]

Now here comes the part where we learn not to get so pissy. One of the panty laced academics that the author of this thread worked with in Afghanistan got her butt scorched too. Some fuckwit threw acid all over her. Didn't heal up though. She's dead. That's experience. Not...listening. Your posts on this matter resemble a case of "compassionate exhaustion". It's the latest. You'll be hearing all about it.

Anyway, it pains me to forego a sterling opportunity to invite somebody to shut the fuck up but in this case I shall.

"Cause I want you to stop being so goddamn pissy and relax.


Ranger KH, I have been the model of sheer restraint thus far, which goes very much against my nature.

While I appreciate your restraint in refraining from telling me to STFU, this is as non-pissy and relaxed as I get. Type A folks, you know.

And if I get any more relaxed, especially at this point in time, I shall be passed out on the floor.

If you care to carry this conversation further, I will be more than happy to oblige you privately. :D

That's kinda hot.

Finally...bloody woman's coming 'round.