Kent State 24 Years Later
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I just have one question, because I personally don't have the time to read all of this.
Did the protestors provoke the incident? Black and white question. I don't want reasons, just did they do something to provoke the soldiers?
If so, the deaths of the bystanders are on the protestors heads. No one elses.
Edited to include: I phrased this to got a short view point on the events/oppinions on what caused it. Because all I am reading is what the guard did, should, would, could, and nothing on what the protest did, should, would, could.
Did the protestors provoke the incident? Black and white question. I don't want reasons, just did they do something to provoke the soldiers?
If so, the deaths of the bystanders are on the protestors heads. No one elses.
Edited to include: I phrased this to got a short view point on the events/oppinions on what caused it. Because all I am reading is what the guard did, should, would, could, and nothing on what the protest did, should, would, could.
B Co 3/75
1989-1990
Just Cause Airlando Commando
1989-1990
Just Cause Airlando Commando
I agree with you Luna, you need to keep reading.Ranger Luna wrote:I just have one question, because I personally don't have the time to read all of this.
Did the protestors provoke the incident? Black and white question. I don't want reasons, just did they do something to provoke the soldiers?
If so, the deaths of the bystanders are on the protestors heads. No one elses.
Edited to include: I phrased this to got a short view point on the events/oppinions on what caused it. Because all I am reading is what the guard did, should, would, could, and nothing on what the protest did, should, would, could.
RLTW
Steadfast
4/325 82d DIV 68-69
2nd Bde HHC (LRRP), 4 ID
K Co (Rgr), 75th Inf (Abn), 4 ID
69-70
I cooked with C- 4
Steadfast
4/325 82d DIV 68-69
2nd Bde HHC (LRRP), 4 ID
K Co (Rgr), 75th Inf (Abn), 4 ID
69-70
I cooked with C- 4
Thanks a lot Ranger Steadfast, it really means a lot to me.Steadfast wrote: Malarkey, you could have left it the way it was. There was no harm stating everything in your own words. You did good Malarkey. I am proud of you. As Cav Troop has pointed out, there are many views to the whole situation and no real clear answers. The bottom line is that when a SNAFU occurs it can be a doozee, especially when chaos is king.
Ranger Luna, the protestors did provoke the Guardsmen by throwing rocks, pieces of concrete and stuff like that at the Guardsmen and the firefighters trying to put out the fire in the ROTC building that the protestors also started.
Malarkey
A co 3/75 '07-'10
Ranger Luna:
They did a lot of things, but nothing that justified popping caps, IMHO.
CT
Malarkey, the burning of the ROTC building brought the Guard to the campus, but that actually had very little to do with the shootings two days later.
They did a lot of things, but nothing that justified popping caps, IMHO.
CT
Malarkey, the burning of the ROTC building brought the Guard to the campus, but that actually had very little to do with the shootings two days later.
107TH Armd Cav OHARNG 1979-1989
"Facere Non Dicere"
Deeds Not Words
"Facere Non Dicere"
Deeds Not Words
In my oppion, if that happened to me while I was trying to keep the peace, rock throwing is violent and I would've answered with extreme prejaduce just like they did. My .02Malarkey87 wrote:Thanks a lot Ranger Steadfast, it really means a lot to me.Steadfast wrote: Malarkey, you could have left it the way it was. There was no harm stating everything in your own words. You did good Malarkey. I am proud of you. As Cav Troop has pointed out, there are many views to the whole situation and no real clear answers. The bottom line is that when a SNAFU occurs it can be a doozee, especially when chaos is king.
Ranger Luna, the protestors did provoke the Guardsmen by throwing rocks, pieces of concrete and stuff like that at the Guardsmen and the firefighters trying to put out the fire in the ROTC building that the protestors also started.
Malarkey
Edited to include: They cant shoot for shit!
B Co 3/75
1989-1990
Just Cause Airlando Commando
1989-1990
Just Cause Airlando Commando
Ranger Luna:
Believe me, I understand where you're coming from! That would be my inclination too. However, riots by our own citizens are not war. Even the deliberate destruction of property does not justify the use of deadly force. The ROE for riots are specific: you cannot shoot someone for throwing a rock at you. You can only shoot him if he is attempting to do serious bodily harm to you or poses a reasonable imminent threat to your safety. The throwing of a rock is not a reasonable threat to a helmeted soldier.
There are a number of good reasons for this, but the most important is that the American public won't stand for it. This has been true since the Boston Massacre, which was used by our Patriot Fathers to help whip up opposition to the British, and rightfully so!
A violation of the ROE is undisciplined behavior. Those guys knew the rules and violated them, IMHO, because they were ticked at the protestors.
Malarkey, I can't believe after all the research you did, you didn't realize there was a two-day gap btw the burning of the ROTC building and the shootings. I would like to see you post a time-line of the events at KSU from the time of President Nixon's speech announcing the invasion of Cambodia through the closing of the university.
If Ranger Steadfast concurs. This is his assignment.
CT Out
Believe me, I understand where you're coming from! That would be my inclination too. However, riots by our own citizens are not war. Even the deliberate destruction of property does not justify the use of deadly force. The ROE for riots are specific: you cannot shoot someone for throwing a rock at you. You can only shoot him if he is attempting to do serious bodily harm to you or poses a reasonable imminent threat to your safety. The throwing of a rock is not a reasonable threat to a helmeted soldier.
There are a number of good reasons for this, but the most important is that the American public won't stand for it. This has been true since the Boston Massacre, which was used by our Patriot Fathers to help whip up opposition to the British, and rightfully so!
A violation of the ROE is undisciplined behavior. Those guys knew the rules and violated them, IMHO, because they were ticked at the protestors.
Malarkey, I can't believe after all the research you did, you didn't realize there was a two-day gap btw the burning of the ROTC building and the shootings. I would like to see you post a time-line of the events at KSU from the time of President Nixon's speech announcing the invasion of Cambodia through the closing of the university.
If Ranger Steadfast concurs. This is his assignment.
CT Out
Last edited by CavTroop on May 7th, 2004, 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
107TH Armd Cav OHARNG 1979-1989
"Facere Non Dicere"
Deeds Not Words
"Facere Non Dicere"
Deeds Not Words
Here is the assignment, if there are any mistakes, I will gladly redo it.
April 30th- Former President Nixon gives a speech announcing the invasion of Cambodia.
May 1st- Students begin a rally 500 people strong around noontime and buried the Constitution. By now, the May 4th rally had already been planned and word spread quickly about it. The rally turned violent and by the end of the day about $5000 of damage had been done and Mayor Leroy Satrom declared a state of emergency.
May 2nd- The National Guard had been alerted and was in Kent. The students were rallying and chanting their war slogans and after a while started to march. After gathering more people around the dorms, they marched up to the ROTC building, broke some windows and after a while set it on fire. The Guard armed themselves with bayonets and tear gas cannisters and dispersed the crowd and firefighters came in to put the fire out.
May 3rd- Governor Rhodes gave a speech about how these protests were the work of organized anti-war groups. The students protested the curfew that the Guard set out, however were pushed back to their dorms by the Guard yet again.
May 4th- On May 4th, the students gathered for a rally that had been banned. The Guard set up an overpowering position on the crowd and tried to disperse them. When the crowd got violent against the Guard, they mistook an arm movement for an order to fire and opened fire on the crowd killing 4 and wounding 9 more. Later that afternoon, the school was ordered to be closed.
Malarkey
April 30th- Former President Nixon gives a speech announcing the invasion of Cambodia.
May 1st- Students begin a rally 500 people strong around noontime and buried the Constitution. By now, the May 4th rally had already been planned and word spread quickly about it. The rally turned violent and by the end of the day about $5000 of damage had been done and Mayor Leroy Satrom declared a state of emergency.
May 2nd- The National Guard had been alerted and was in Kent. The students were rallying and chanting their war slogans and after a while started to march. After gathering more people around the dorms, they marched up to the ROTC building, broke some windows and after a while set it on fire. The Guard armed themselves with bayonets and tear gas cannisters and dispersed the crowd and firefighters came in to put the fire out.
May 3rd- Governor Rhodes gave a speech about how these protests were the work of organized anti-war groups. The students protested the curfew that the Guard set out, however were pushed back to their dorms by the Guard yet again.
May 4th- On May 4th, the students gathered for a rally that had been banned. The Guard set up an overpowering position on the crowd and tried to disperse them. When the crowd got violent against the Guard, they mistook an arm movement for an order to fire and opened fire on the crowd killing 4 and wounding 9 more. Later that afternoon, the school was ordered to be closed.
Malarkey
A co 3/75 '07-'10
I still feel the same way. I would have killed sooner. They were the violent ones abusing their rights. Do I want people to die? NO. Bit if I am attacked and have gun in my hand, I will use it and wouldn't blame anyone for the same.
LEOs do the same thing every day. Justified.
LEOs do the same thing every day. Justified.
B Co 3/75
1989-1990
Just Cause Airlando Commando
1989-1990
Just Cause Airlando Commando
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Thank you for the information you have shared on the subject. There was alot that I didn't know about the Kent State shooting. But I still agree with Luna.
"We spoke to them in the only language they understood - the machine gun."
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