Who were the greatest military leaders?

[rgrokelley]

Somebody mentioned Sam Houston. I wouldnt choose him out of the group I have seen posted here. However, I would throw Robert E. Lee into the mix. Brilliant man. As I understand it, gracious, even tempered, led by example, and in many eyes, sustained a war effort far beyond what was seen as sustainable.

Out of all, R.E. Lee would stand out as the greatest military leader in American history. I would conclude both US and CS. While in the US he did some wild, Ranger-like missions, such as doing a one man reconnaissance behind Mexican lines to find the route to Cerro Gordo. Then having the army climb that mountain and get behind the Mexicans. He went from being a captain, to a brevet Colonel in the time frame of that short war due to his actions.

When he ran West Point he produced many of the leaders that y'all have mentioned on this thread. When it came time to choose someone to run the US Army in the War Between the States, Lincoln picked him. He turned it down because he couldn't fight against his people in Virginia.

His exploits during the War Between the States are self evident. There is a reason Lincoln kept firing his commanders. They couldn't outwit or outfight Lee. Even after the war northern officers would visit him and seek his guidance. They knew he had been the enemy, but they also knew that he was the best general of the war.

Interestingly Lee modeled himself after the other leader we have been talking about, Washington. Lee was raised in a family that was connected to Washington, and Washington's myth was what Lee had to live up to.

[Jim]

Yeah, what he said. However there is a movement, within the Guards fraternity organization (whatever it is called) to put Guilford on their colors. Source for this is some Guard officers I know.

Here is the Parachute Regimental flag to demonstrate what I'm talking about:
The scrolls bear the names of famous battles/campaigns

[DrD]

Not to change the subject, or interfere... (I am really enjoying this, and learning a lot!) Buuuut, any thoughts specifically on Middle Eastern leaders, tactics, etc? Know it is a touchy subject. PM me if it is better than posting in the wild.

Shana

[Invictus]

Somebody mentioned Sam Houston. I wouldnt choose him out of the group I have seen posted here. However, I would throw Robert E. Lee into the mix. Brilliant man. As I understand it, gracious, even tempered, led by example, and in many eyes, sustained a war effort far beyond what was seen as sustainable.

Out of all, R.E. Lee would stand out as the greatest military leader in American history. I would conclude both US and CS. While in the US he did some wild, Ranger-like missions, such as doing a one man reconnaissance behind Mexican lines to find the route to Cerro Gordo. Then having the army climb that mountain and get behind the Mexicans. He went from being a captain, to a brevet Colonel in the time frame of that short war due to his actions.

When he ran West Point he produced many of the leaders that y'all have mentioned on this thread. When it came time to choose someone to run the US Army in the War Between the States, Lincoln picked him. He turned it down because he couldn't fight against his people in Virginia.

His exploits during the War Between the States are self evident. There is a reason Lincoln kept firing his commanders. They couldn't outwit or outfight Lee. Even after the war northern officers would visit him and seek his guidance. They knew he had been the enemy, but they also knew that he was the best general of the war.

Interestingly Lee modeled himself after the other leader we have been talking about, Washington. Lee was raised in a family that was connected to Washington, and Washington's myth was what Lee had to live up to.

While I revere RE Lee as much as any good Southerner, and student of military history, I do have to wonder about a couple of his decisions. Specifically fighting a piecemeal battle at Gettysburg, allowing himself to become decisively engaged on ground not of his choosing, rather than withdrawing and finding better ground, as he had done in the past, and finally, not knowing when to withdraw and fight again another day (Pickett's charge).

[Rock Island Ranger]

Somebody mentioned Sam Houston. I wouldnt choose him out of the group I have seen posted here. However, I would throw Robert E. Lee into the mix. Brilliant man. As I understand it, gracious, even tempered, led by example, and in many eyes, sustained a war effort far beyond what was seen as sustainable.

Out of all, R.E. Lee would stand out as the greatest military leader in American history. I would conclude both US and CS. While in the US he did some wild, Ranger-like missions, such as doing a one man reconnaissance behind Mexican lines to find the route to Cerro Gordo. Then having the army climb that mountain and get behind the Mexicans. He went from being a captain, to a brevet Colonel in the time frame of that short war due to his actions.

When he ran West Point he produced many of the leaders that y'all have mentioned on this thread. When it came time to choose someone to run the US Army in the War Between the States, Lincoln picked him. He turned it down because he couldn't fight against his people in Virginia.

His exploits during the War Between the States are self evident. There is a reason Lincoln kept firing his commanders. They couldn't outwit or outfight Lee. Even after the war northern officers would visit him and seek his guidance. They knew he had been the enemy, but they also knew that he was the best general of the war.

Interestingly Lee modeled himself after the other leader we have been talking about, Washington. Lee was raised in a family that was connected to Washington, and Washington's myth was what Lee had to live up to.

While I revere RE Lee as much as any good Southerner, and student of military history, I do have to wonder about a couple of his decisions. Specifically fighting a piecemeal battle at Gettysburg, allowing himself to become decisively engaged on ground not of his choosing, rather than withdrawing and finding better ground, as he had done in the past, and finally, not knowing when to withdraw and fight again another day (Pickett's charge).

Im not sure history should count those things against him since accounts of the decisions were at best, mixed. Add in the inability to KNOW many factors on a certain time frame, and you have a decision made an hour ago that is now...a bad idea. He did take risk and he did make decisions. What leader of this magnitude has ever done it all JUST RIGHT. And in a time frame where technology was a set of Bino's.

[Invictus]

Im not sure history should count those things against him since accounts of the decisions were at best, mixed. Add in the inability to KNOW many factors on a certain time frame, and you have a decision made an hour ago that is now...a bad idea. He did take risk and he did make decisions. What leader of this magnitude has ever done it all JUST RIGHT. And in a time frame where technology was a set of Bino's.

Agree CSM, it's just unfortunate that all of these possible mistakes seem to be present in the most decisive battle of the war. His last great opportunity was squandered because of multiple bad decisions. At least you could argue that.

[Rock Island Ranger]

Im not sure history should count those things against him since accounts of the decisions were at best, mixed. Add in the inability to KNOW many factors on a certain time frame, and you have a decision made an hour ago that is now...a bad idea. He did take risk and he did make decisions. What leader of this magnitude has ever done it all JUST RIGHT. And in a time frame where technology was a set of Bino's.

Agree CSM, it's just unfortunate that all of these possible mistakes seem to be present in the most decisive battle of the war. His last great opportunity was squandered because of multiple bad decisions. At least you could argue that.

Ive given that thought. If you look at the dynamics of decision making at that level and at that time, Generals relied heavily on information they received and advise from field commanders, assessments from staff, ect....When it's bad advise, bad desions can be made. When G-2 sucks, results can as well. I think I read somewhere he stated verty bravely..."he was out General'ed."

[Invictus]

Im not sure history should count those things against him since accounts of the decisions were at best, mixed. Add in the inability to KNOW many factors on a certain time frame, and you have a decision made an hour ago that is now...a bad idea. He did take risk and he did make decisions. What leader of this magnitude has ever done it all JUST RIGHT. And in a time frame where technology was a set of Bino's.

Agree CSM, it's just unfortunate that all of these possible mistakes seem to be present in the most decisive battle of the war. His last great opportunity was squandered because of multiple bad decisions. At least you could argue that.

Ive given that thought. If you look at the dynamics of decision making at that level and at that time, Generals relied heavily on information they received and advise from field commanders, assessments from staff, ect....When it's bad advise, bad desions can be made. When G-2 sucks, results can as well. I think I read somewhere he stated verty bravely..."he was out General'ed."

While I have a hard time admitting that Bobby Lee was out General'ed by George Meade, the results would lead you to think that. Personally, I think he was much less decisive and confident sans Stonewall, and he didn't use very good judgment. This is especially true for Pickett's charge.

I've read a few "what if" books on other courses of action, and would really like to have seen what might have come from him withdrawing that 1st day rather than really getting into it with Buford, and picking better ground.

At the end of the day "I am responsible for everything my patrol accomplishes or fails to accomplish".

[DrD]

Got them. Thanks, Ranger Rangertom! And, yes on... MAJ Winters and Lawrence of Arabia.

BTW... looking for the less friendly, too. (Even if they are not great... just representative...) :D

Shana

Edited... because I am really tired and I misread Ranger Rangertom's post.

[Ranger Bill]

Not to change the subject, or interfere... (I am really enjoying this, and learning a lot!) Buuuut, any thoughts specifically on Middle Eastern leaders, tactics, etc? Know it is a touchy subject. PM me if it is better than posting in the wild.

Shana

Lawrence of Arabia- fought in the mid east does that count.
Moshe Dayan- Israel
Yitzhak Rabin- Israel
Ariel Sharon- Israel
Mohammad
Brain storming here. I am sure there are some if you go back in time.
Go further East you have Sun Tzu, Giap, Yamamoto, Attila, Genghis Khan.
I do not think we nominated MAJ. Winters he had good solid leadership at the lower levels.

T.E. Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia) and he should count. He wrote and excellent book "Seven Pillars of Wisdom."

[Jim]

Excellent T.E.Lawrence website:

http://telawrence.info/telawrenceinfo/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Invictus]

Not to change the subject, or interfere... (I am really enjoying this, and learning a lot!) Buuuut, any thoughts specifically on Middle Eastern leaders, tactics, etc? Know it is a touchy subject. PM me if it is better than posting in the wild.

Shana

Well, not exactly an ME leader, he did conquer that AO...Alexander the Great.
Cyrus the Great was also a badass.

[Rock Island Ranger]

Not to change the subject, or interfere... (I am really enjoying this, and learning a lot!) Buuuut, any thoughts specifically on Middle Eastern leaders, tactics, etc? Know it is a touchy subject. PM me if it is better than posting in the wild.

Shana

Well, not exactly an ME leader, he did conquer that AO...Alexander the Great.
Cyrus the Great was also a badass.

Alexander is reputed to be one of the finest leaders ever in many respects. Utterly brilliant, supremely confident in his men and training, and led from the front. It is said, he fought in every battle and had mastered every weapon used by his men. He loved his enemy when they fought well, respected and loved his men, and was returned this love and respect. He allowed the lowest soldier to address him by name and only considered himself "a warrior", never a King. He lived for the fight. He had HUGE contempt for the leader who would surround himself with soldiers to protect himself and made it a point to humiliate them and would not EVER quit pursuing them to that end. The opposing leaders who were drenched in blood and barely standing and refused to surrender, he would build temples to, cry over, and paid huge sums of gold to their families. Even opposition leaders. And Cyrus...well, was his Daddy.

[rgrokelley]

And Cyrus...well, was his Daddy.

Hannah Montana's too :D