Point/ Reflex shooting

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twitch
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Point/ Reflex shooting

Post by twitch »

Rangers-
This past weekend I got the chance to get out and do some pistol qualifying practice and fundamental runs at the home range. The numbers i put up were decent and so was grouping but the thing that seems to kill me is when we were at about 7ft or 5yds and did point/reflex shoots :oops: .
They were 5rds ea with strong and weak hand, off hip, from holster (just held the weapon down at our side for weak hand). I shot very low on target and had absoluty no grouping to be honest with that part. Granted it was the first time I tried point/reflex shooting, but no excuses there, just plain bad shooting.
Would anyone happen to have a good practice routine to go through to tighten up groups and get more accurate rounds on target? I've never really thought that there were any fundamentals to go with that type of shooting and don't quite know where to start. Would those lazer practice rounds work for a bit of practice if anyone has ever used them?

Thanks again Rangers!
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DougS90
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Re: Point/ Reflex shooting

Post by DougS90 »

twtich,
I'm not sure what the practicality of shooting off the hip would be if you can get the distance to present the pistol. Am I correct that this is the "Draw, and shoot right off the holster" technique? At 5 yards, I think you're pushing the range of such a method, which I've only ever seen used at contact distances. If there's distance to present the pistol to eye level, I'd take advantage of it, even if there's no time to actually acquire the sights. That's how I typically handle point-shooting. Granted, if its a qualification drill, you can't very well argue that "I do things differently".

So, if you do need to get better at it, a laser would be recommended. Build the proper muscle memory up through dry-fire (lots of it) until getting on target from such a low position feels natural. No different than anything else (drawing, reloading, etc) proper practice will give you the right technique. After that, hit the range and see where you are then. Don't forget to bring any lasers to the range so that you can do some warm up/diagnostic dry fire there as well if you start noticing problems that you didn't have during practice.

Your shooting description sounds like jerking the trigger (which you probably already know) but whenever I find myself trying a technique I'm not familiar with, especially when an emphasis is placed on putting rounds downrange quickly, its tempting to forget the fundamentals. Even if you're hipshooting, trigger control still applies, and probably much moreso, since you are not able to make on the fly corrections with your sights. Using a laser during dryfire should help not only as far as aiming goes, but also with respect to any movements you might be making as you break the shot.
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twitch
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Re: Point/ Reflex shooting

Post by twitch »

Doug590-
That was pretty much my thoughts as far as the distance was concerned. I've been told I need to work on my Natural POA/POI with this type of drill. Honestly if I can create some space I would... but then again not everything is perfect.

I might be breaking down and getting some of that fancy lazer practice ammo (don't think my neighbors would appreciate it much shooting in my apartment lol).

Trigger control is fine with any other position but it might be just another thing of adjusting to a new "environment" shooting stance. I'll just have to grab another box of cheap ammo and run out to a practice range with the 'ol .22 handgun to get some good fundamental practice in.
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things...The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
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cams
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Re: Point/ Reflex shooting

Post by cams »

Point shooting means just that. Your drawing the weapon out, punching it out in front of you with both hands and getting rounds downrange, without using your sights. It should simply be a complete extension of your arms.     

It is not shooting from the hip cowboy style.  

Draw the weapon quickly, punch it out in front of you with both hands, centered out in front of your chest, do not look at your sights, this is for close quarters with an armed attacker. You see the target, your weapon and your hands should be centered on it, and fire two quick shots. This should not sound like "bang.........bang" it should almost be two bangs in one, real quick. "bangbang" double tap.   
(Not easy to explain this in writing so bare with me.)  

It takes practice just like anything else. 

One recommendation is to buy some targets or make some targets with several small circles (approx 6" across) or different shapes on them. Should be at least 6 on one sheet paper target.  

Number each shape or circle between 1-6. Put your target out to about 5-7 yrds to start. 

Think "21 Foot Rule" meaning a man with a knife can close that distance and kill you before you can get unholstered and fire.  

Once you're in your lane and ready (holstered and locked down/eyes and ears) have a buddy call out a number, that is the circle you will fire at (2 rounds), re-holster and keep doing this over and over at the different numbers to build muscle memory. 

You won't get all your rounds inside the circles, I guarantee it, but you'll get used to bringing them in tighter (aim small-miss small). 

You'll also realize that even though some are an inch or two outside the circles, that circle is smaller than a mans head and if you're shooting at an actual attacker, center mass, you'll hit him every time. See there? So don't get down on yourself if you're all outside the circles, just keep at it. 

Hope this helps. If you're totally confused pm me and I'll try to make sense of it for you. You don't need lasers and all kinds of fancy ammo, just practice and patience bud.

If you were shooting from down by your hip, you got me, I'd never fire that way, or teach someone to fire that way, punch that fucker straight out in front of you and hit him the first time.      

          
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Re: Point/ Reflex shooting

Post by RangerX »

The only time you should be shooting from the hip is because you are closed with your opponent and they are about to cause you GBH. At that point you should be getting the muzzle out of the holster and oriented at their torso (but away from yours), then pulling the trigger repeatedly until they let go of you and fall to the ground dead dead dead.
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twitch
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Re: Point/ Reflex shooting

Post by twitch »

Thanks Ranger cams and RangerX>>>

Long story short; worked on what you told me Ranger cams with soe sim rounds at first (didn't have the ability to write up reports and get on the range everyday so it was a step in the direction a least on gaining tat good trigger control). That and really just practiced with shooting in retention... starting from palm strike to the head of a stantion target, followed by one to the chest, create distance and then two to the head. the circles are coming along... Still working on speed and tightening up groups as much as i can, but time and real work will bring em round.

all in all thanks again!
Cheers.
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things...The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
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cams
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Re: Point/ Reflex shooting

Post by cams »

twitch wrote:Thanks Ranger cams and RangerX>>>

Long story short; worked on what you told me Ranger cams with soe sim rounds at first (didn't have the ability to write up reports and get on the range everyday so it was a step in the direction a least on gaining tat good trigger control). That and really just practiced with shooting in retention... starting from palm strike to the head of a stantion target, followed by one to the chest, create distance and then two to the head. the circles are coming along... Still working on speed and tightening up groups as much as i can, but time and real work will bring em round.

all in all thanks again!
Cheers.
I'm a little confused. Maybe I'm just overly tired right now, how long have you been working on my suggestions to you now?

Also, if you're using a palm strike to create distance, this is because you've not drawn your weapon yet, correct? If your weapon is already out, you should smash the targets chest with the barrel if you're engaged and that close and double tap your target, then take a step back, make sure he stays down, his/her weapon is secured and then scan for other threats before reholstering.
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Re: Point/ Reflex shooting

Post by cams »

To add, I don't follow the logic of creating distance to take a head shot. I would submit that you should always keep moving towards the threat, therefore bringing your rounds closer to home and ending said threat. Is this a Dept mandate or policy that is taught?

I could understand dropping your spray or baton if it escalates and taking a full side step at the same time you're drawing, then firing from the angle, but stepping straight back seems to only give the threat ample time to respond as well. ?
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Point/ Reflex shooting

Post by IEDmagnet »

cams wrote:To add, I don't follow the logic of creating distance to take a head shot. I would submit that you should always keep moving towards the threat, therefore bringing your rounds closer to home and ending said threat. Is this a Dept mandate or policy that is taught?

I could understand dropping your spray or baton if it escalates and taking a full side step at the same time you're drawing, then firing from the angle, but stepping straight back seems to only give the threat ample time to respond as well. ?
All of this. Lateral movement is your friend. It forces the suspect to attempt to follow you and gives you time to index them permanently.
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twitch
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Re: Point/ Reflex shooting

Post by twitch »

cams wrote: I'm a little confused. Maybe I'm just overly tired right now, how long have you been working on my suggestions to you now?

Also, if you're using a palm strike to create distance, this is because you've not drawn your weapon yet, correct? If your weapon is already out, you should smash the targets chest with the barrel if you're engaged and that close and double tap your target, then take a step back, make sure he stays down, his/her weapon is secured and then scan for other threats before reholstering.
No I managed to really write that post completly FUBAR... let me make things a bit clear:
Got the chance to be working with a few long tabbers ... guy taught me about starting with 10in. circles and then working down to 1in. circles at 7m (slow aim fire to start) then moving back to 10in. circles and speed up shots using controlled pairs and working smaller and smaller... once my grouping would improve i then would go back and repeat the process picking up speed. From there moved to 1-5 drills on silhouette's (would use some 1in. pasteys for a good starting marker). starting on grouping and then moving up with speed. In and out we would use the shapes/colored/numbered targets (lucky charms) here and there just for target discrimination. I've been using the numbered "bulls" qual targets since i got tired of making alot of circles or printing some out all the time. But yes i have been using some of those principles and targets to work on things... at times its been about half sim rounds so I don't have to jump through hoops to use my range.

As far as the retention shooting goes I don't know how or why but thats what he taught me and it seemed to fit... honestly don't have a good reason about that one. When we started working on moving and shooting it was one of those things where you never walk backwards EVER; however, the only time tha stepping back was in the question was in retention shooting. Now the shots to the chest and gut I'm all for and lets face it... it seems odd to (when you palm strike the face to knock your target off balance) only shoot one round in center mass then take one step back and drop two to the head. I think where he might have been coming from is a scenario where: you walk up on a target and they (seemingly submssive at first) become agressive and manage to grab your primary, then you move with a strike to the face to knock off center grab the secondary and the rest of the drill follows in line.
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things...The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
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