What if RS was Bootcamp?

McD · Post by **McD** » January 17th, 2005, 9:29 am

Some of this post ties into this topic. Bell's posts specifically.

HERE!

BadMuther · Post by **BadMuther** » January 17th, 2005, 2:14 pm

Abell9 wrote:Everything that has been written here makes excellent sense, it's logical, it's efficient...it won't happen. Because the GOVT has built within itself many protection mechanisms that protect itself, its turf, it's dominion over a specific area. And Govt. does not equal logic, common sense, and efficiency.
Sec. Def is basic in concurrance of a more compact service, even to the extent of Matadors thoughts. But, Tankers say, "you can't fight without a tank! Tank manufactors say, all these people will be out of work! And it goes on and on and on.

Last but not least. BM Wrote...

What I have seen lately is it appears that the conventional forces are getting more high speed gear/training then they had been in the past. Your average NG infantry unit looks more high speed then my Ranger squad did in the early 90's. But then again, you can dress it up and polish it, but in the end a turd is a turd.

I understand the sentiment BM states here, but men who volunteer for service are not Turds and their lack of training is not necessarily a fault they (as men) can correct. The Guard and Reserves have been given tasks which they are unable because of training time to complete. A Mechanized Infantry Guard Unit. What the fuck? You barely have time to train these guys to any reasonable basic skill much less throwing in the biggest maintainance nightmare ever created.
The Guard and Reserves are necessary however, their roles should be limited to what they can master immediatly and within a 90 day recall train up time. Throw in a manning requirement that units MUST have 110% strength and you have a recipe for disastor. They HAVE to accept Cat 4's in the ranks because they have a difficult time getting semi intelligent people to begin with unless they are specialized units.

An total revamp or enema IS required but if we made Basic as hard as RIP or Ranger School...our Combat forces would amount to having about 75,000 soldiers. I would though advocate Army basic taking on aspects of Marine training where ALL soldiers are Infantry FIRST.
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Pastor,

Allow me to clarify...I did not mean to imply that NG/Reserve units are "Turds".

What I meant was in every unit you will have the

1. Studs
2. Good performers
3. Do what needs to be done guys
3. Soldiers with potential for improvement
4. Shitbags

Very similiar to what Spartan wrote. I haven't had that much experience with "regular" units. The thing that sets Ranger and other units apart is the ability to DX shitbags. That and with our higher entry standards, ensures that the bulk of the Rangers in Regiment are at least "good performers".

Leg units are stuck with shitbags and "do what needs to be done and nothing more guys". So no matter how much high speed training and gear these units get, as long as they are stuck with no means of dxing underachievers, the whole unit will suffer. That's what I meant by that statement Pastor.

Regular units need a "dx" feature. Something that would not be an easy way out, and that would serve as punishment.

What if each infantry company had a "shitbag" platoon? A platoon where douchebags had to perform janitorial tasks and other menial labor? Where life in that platoon was so rough that soldiers in it would beg to be given a chance to rejoin their platoon?

Silverback · Post by **Silverback** » January 17th, 2005, 4:02 pm

MYOPIC

The topic of this thread should be "How to attain Utopia for Warriors"

James_K · Post by **James_K** » February 28th, 2005, 11:29 pm

I may be slightly out of place here and if I am, I am sorry. I am sitting on my ass at the moment waiting for my paper work and waiver fun to be done and over with. I have asked for the privlage to be in the United States Army Infantry, I scored high enough to do a lot of other jobs. Many people look at me when I tell them I am planning on the army, like I am nuts. Then I tell them Infantry... oh shit I must be out of my mind for sure. I could do much " safer " jobs for sure, and even learn a skill.

Last time I checked engageing, closeing in with and destroying the enemies for our nation in close combat was a skill in short supply. With 10+ Soldiers making sure one man can stay in the field with his rifle, mabey we have enough support guys and need more riflemen?

Well... that should answer the question about warriors right there. Warriors can only come from the society that raises them.

The Spartans, The Mongols, Pre European African Tribes, 1700's era American Minutemen, The Irish in general, Post ww 1 Germans.

All of these societies understood and respected the warriors place in there society, and understood the burden these often young men would bear. The word Infantry does come from the Latin word Infant for the young after all.

Today we tell our young men to worry about there feelings, not to offend others. Our media tells them that being a man is bad, that you are an oaf, crude and crass. We have a society that has lately been built on fast food and video games, and not hard work and the fact that duty is privlage.

This is the pool from wih we select or Warriors from. Thank god we have men still in existance like the Rangers and others on this fourm, that are not completely spaded like some session at a vet. We have more bad habbits to break now than we did twenty years ago when we trained American youth to be Warriors.

If I were in charge for one year, I would double the length of Basic and AIT, then I would take every one of you that is out of the service. Men with experance in combat arms, combat duty and SOF type units and have you all train our next generation. And by train I mean train. 18 hours a day, seven days a week, until they left whatever school they were at. Make them sweat, bleed and cry while in GA, rather than while in Mosul, Baghdad or Trikrit. More will come home alive, and more of the enemy will go home in bags.

I understand that I am not what one would call a " stud " or whatnot. Yet I am motivated and dedicated, and understad what I am getting into. I want it, more than anything else. There will always be natural warriors in any society, let's just make sure that we can make any and all who are willing and able to be Warriors just that. I, and other young Americans will be faceing men that want to lop off our heads, I'd rather not give them that chance.

Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets!

James K

csforstall · Post by **csforstall** » February 28th, 2005, 11:44 pm

James K... Check your PMs...

soldiersdad · Post by **soldiersdad** » March 1st, 2005, 12:58 am

toad · Post by **toad** » March 3rd, 2005, 9:51 pm

James_K wrote:I may be slightly out of place here........

You ARE slightly out of place here, wait until you get to Basic you will have a suggestion box in your barracks for all your good ideas.

Silverback · Post by **Silverback** » March 3rd, 2005, 9:58 pm

James_K wrote: I understand that I am not what one would call a " stud " or whatnot. Yet I am motivated and dedicated, and understad what I am getting into. I want it, more than anything else. There will always be natural warriors in any society, let's just make sure that we can make any and all who are willing and able to be Warriors just that. I, and other young Americans will be faceing men that want to lop off our heads, I'd rather not give them that chance.

Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets!

James K

OK James...I got two simple questions

1. How many men have you killed?
2. How many of your comrades have you saluted while their remains container was being loaded on a plane?

That's what I thought...STFU!

James_K · Post by **James_K** » March 25th, 2005, 4:42 pm

Ranger Toad you are correct, I am out of line and will knock out an extra fifty for my big new york mouth.

:: Resumes shutting his big new york mouth and knocks out extra push up's and sit up's ::

Kilted Heathen · Post by **Kilted Heathen** » March 25th, 2005, 4:45 pm

Do another fifty for bein' late!

SmokeEater10500 · Post by **SmokeEater10500** » April 4th, 2005, 8:06 am

Hello All,
I got to reading this topic and I came up with a few questions. ROTC produces the vast majority of the officers in the Army. With that, you get good officers, mediocre officers, and shitbag officers. Do you think it should be required of all officers to attend basic training during ROTC (do it over a summer?) Many people in ROTC are not nearly as squared away as the kids who are prior service or have completed basic/ait. I can include myself in this category. We have had cadets request to attend basic over a summer in order to gain knowledge and get themselves in check and their requests have been shot down. Do you feel that it would also benefit cadets to "see the other side" of the Army? We are all beer drinking college kids who are all going to make future officers yet we cannot relate to the lives of the enlisted man. One final question I pose concerns RIP and cadets who want to branch Infantry. In todays Army it seems that every newly commissioned LT. who branches Infantry goes to Ranger School. Could RIP be a way to weed out any person who wants an Infantry slot yet doesnt deserve it and instead give it to the person who deserves it more but may not get it? With this, the cadet's would not wear a tan beret or wear a scroll, but they would instead be guaranteed Infantry upon commissioning. This would ensure that the best possible candidates are the ones who are in fact getting these highly demanded jobs. These are just a few ideas I had in my head from reading this topic.

SkyShark · Post by **SkyShark** » April 5th, 2005, 12:07 pm

SmokeEater10500 wrote:Hello All,
I got to reading this topic and I came up with a few questions. ROTC produces the vast majority of the officers in the Army. With that, you get good officers, mediocre officers, and shitbag officers. Do you think it should be required of all officers to attend basic training during ROTC (do it over a summer?) Many people in ROTC are not nearly as squared away as the kids who are prior service or have completed basic/ait. I can include myself in this category. We have had cadets request to attend basic over a summer in order to gain knowledge and get themselves in check and their requests have been shot down. Do you feel that it would also benefit cadets to "see the other side" of the Army? We are all beer drinking college kids who are all going to make future officers yet we cannot relate to the lives of the enlisted man. One final question I pose concerns RIP and cadets who want to branch Infantry. In todays Army it seems that every newly commissioned LT. who branches Infantry goes to Ranger School. Could RIP be a way to weed out any person who wants an Infantry slot yet doesnt deserve it and instead give it to the person who deserves it more but may not get it? With this, the cadet's would not wear a tan beret or wear a scroll, but they would instead be guaranteed Infantry upon commissioning. This would ensure that the best possible candidates are the ones who are in fact getting these highly demanded jobs. These are just a few ideas I had in my head from reading this topic.

Please don't take any personal offense to my post, however, no matter what "training" an officer receives, they will not be able to relate to the enlisted life. Unless of course they are prior enlisted themselves. The best officers are those that were prior enlistd. Yes, ROTC and the Academy do produce good educated officers, however, officers need to have the proper attitude. I have had some kick ass officers and some shit bags, primarily it was the attitude thatlabled them. As far as a 2nd LT being Tabbed, I don't know if things have changed since I was in but, when I was in an officer needed to to be tabbed before they were able to commabd a platoon. I was Infantry. We did have a butter bar once who was not tabbed and the 13 months I was in the unit he was in the s-4 shop. He never got a platoon. He had failed Ranger School 3 times.

Tell you what though, I think it is a good sign for you to be even curious to see what the other side of Army life is like. Kudos to you for investigating. My best advice to any new officer is to listen to his or her NCO's.

BattleBoar · Post by **BattleBoar** » April 5th, 2005, 2:06 pm

Fellas, let me take a crack at this.

SmokeEater10500 wrote:Hello All,
I got to reading this topic and I came up with a few questions. ROTC produces the vast majority of the officers in the Army. With that, you get good officers, mediocre officers, and shitbag officers. Do you think it should be required of all officers to attend basic training during ROTC (do it over a summer?) Many people in ROTC are not nearly as squared away as the kids who are prior service or have completed basic/ait. I can include myself in this category.

Trust me, you get great officers and shitbags from ALL sources. Most of us are somewhere in between. No, basic should not be required; what's required is that you pay attention to every single class, every single lecture, and every other block of instruction that you're already getting. When you honestly give 100% all the time, soaking up every last bit of information someone throws you, and you make the most of what is already available, you'll find that you've learned quite a bit. You say that many are not as "squared away" as the guys who went to basic. Cadets are in a learning environment, where it's OK to screw up. What's not OK is to fail to learn from a screw up. Or to just plain fail to learn. If a guy is taking life seriously, then I really don't see the developmental benefit of increasing the OSUT throughput by making every cadet attend.

SmokeEater10500 wrote:We have had cadets request to attend basic over a summer in order to gain knowledge and get themselves in check and their requests have been shot down.

Because it would be a waste of a drill sergeant's time. You're going to get the individual skills training you need. That's already programmed into your training. Then you're going to get it again when you get to Benning for your IOBC or BOLC, or whatever they're calling it these days.

SmokeEater10500 wrote:Do you feel that it would also benefit cadets to "see the other side" of the Army? We are all beer drinking college kids who are all going to make future officers yet we cannot relate to the lives of the enlisted man.

Rangers, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but cadet, Soldiers do not require leaders to have been a private, too. What they demand is a competent professional. Someone who knows what he's doing, cares about his Soldiers, and has the requisite skills to not get their ass killed in the combat zone that YOU WILL take them to. If by being a "beer drinking college kid" you mean that your social life resembles Animal House, then enjoy, but when you sober up on Sunday morning, do some extra PT and read MacDonald's Company Commander. If it means that you're going through your college days content to put off worrying about all that Army stuff till later, then start taking personal responsibility for your own development. Saying, "I'm not worthy, so someone should send my ass to basic," is not what I mean. I mean pay attention to everything you're already getting and then read like a man possessed on your free time and you just might be ready to START learning when you meet your platoon sergeant.

SmokeEater10500 wrote:One final question I pose concerns RIP and cadets who want to branch Infantry. In todays Army it seems that every newly commissioned LT. who branches Infantry goes to Ranger School. Could RIP be a way to weed out any person who wants an Infantry slot yet doesnt deserve it and instead give it to the person who deserves it more but may not get it? With this, the cadet's would not wear a tan beret or wear a scroll, but they would instead be guaranteed Infantry upon commissioning. This would ensure that the best possible candidates are the ones who are in fact getting these highly demanded jobs. These are just a few ideas I had in my head from reading this topic.

I've never been to RIP or ROP, so I'm unqualified to be an Infantry Officer? Of course not.

SmokeEater, I trained IOBC lieutenants for a couple of years. The only thing that distinguishes a good brand new lieutenant from a bad one in my mind is that he takes this shit seriously. Since you're asking questions, I'm guessing you do. Just don't sell yourself short. You're going to go through some great training. Yes. That will include Ranger School. Keep your eyes open and take copious notes. Everything you need is going to be presented. The question is, "Will you be paying attention when it is?"