Human Terrain System Documentary

[Darksaga]

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This is the program I have been associated with for the past several years.

The contractor they follow was a good friend with an impressive intellect.

[DrD]

Intriguing program, Darksaga. Thank you for sharing. One of my mentors did psych ops, and it is a *very* interesting field. :D

[Rock Island Ranger]

I tend to agree with the Texas Mom chick. Hyper academics tend to insert their superior minds into areas they THINK they understand however, over accentuate theory as fact. Its fine to understand the enemy as long as it allows warriors to kill more of them. But to insert the notion that you can fight a war with gloves, ball and chains, and plastic promises is long proven to be bullshit. Fear in any culture is an excellent bridge builder and even cave dwellers know the thought "if I fuck with them I get fileted".
Nice to think about for those IQ's in the 150 + zone. Still, overall effectiveness....not so much.

[DrD]

I tend to agree with the Texas Mom chick. Hyper academics tend to insert their superior minds into areas they THINK they understand however, over accentuate theory as fact. Its fine to understand the enemy as long as it allows warriors to kill more of them. But to insert the notion that you can fight a war with gloves, ball and chains, and plastic promises is long proven to be bullshit. Fear in any culture is an excellent bridge builder and even cave dwellers know the thought "if I fuck with them I get fileted".
Nice to think about for those IQ's in the 150 + zone. Still, overall effectiveness....not so much.

Your point is well taken. Such do exist... but, those are not what I refer to (which I think you know already). :D :D

[Nomad]

What a colossal waste of taxpayer money. How does one use "non-violence" to win hearts and minds, when the population at large is uncivilized and understands nothing but violence??? Locals will respond to whomever promises them what they want, allegiances shift with the faintest breeze, money and weapons talk -- that's power, that's protecting their self-interests. These people don't know anything else, and that's how their country has been for centuries ... and I doubt they ever can be "civilized" in any way approaching what our culture considers "civilized".

You're oversimplifying something quite complex. The goal is not to turn them into a US metropolitan style culture.

Our military appears weak, to be expending so much time, effort, so many resources, on "non-violent stabilization" efforts ... which are what? Radio broadcasts ... temporarily mollifying mullahs ... shaming corrupt cops and officials? Puleeeeeze.

That's ridiculous. One has nothing to do with the other. You miss out on a lot of valuable information if you just go in and beat people down.

And no, I haven't been there, done that ... but I correspond with soldiers and marines who are, who have been, and some of them are in the middle of the worst fighting, and some of them in intel. I'd trust the thoughts and insights of boots on the ground faster than any lace panty privileged academic.

You're getting second and third hand hearsay, more than likely from guys who don't have any involvement in the program.

[Darksaga]

Given that the definition of HTS is to provide military commanders and staff with an understanding of the local population by conducting research, interpreting, and archiving cultural information and knowledge ... 1) how much really valuable information will those teams provide, in the long run?!

2) I agree with Pastor ... Fear in any culture is an excellent bridge builder and even cave dwellers know the thought "if I fuck with them I get fileted". [/color][/b]

1) The information is invaluable. To have the continuity of knowledge of the battle space by having people on sight and not to just have contacts handed off his a great asset to have. This includes fundamental knowledge of the areas key individuals and who they are linked to, being able to advise on second and third order of effects, answer cultural questions for the units, work directly with the population, cross pollinate with other assets, using data to establish patterns and the list goes on. Having these abilities is imperative in a counter- insurgency environment.

2) Pastor, is of course correct, however fear seems to end when a man's family is starving.

[Rock Island Ranger]

LT, and anyone else who wants to weigh in. Nobody discounts the value of winning the hearts and minds of indigenous people. However, what seems to me has happened is that we have layered upon Psy Ops an additional Academinc arm that has protested loudly enough that enhanced Rules of Engagement of been implemented at times. This "deep understanding" made the warriors hand a benevolent giver as well. So, did we and do we not pay for allegiance? Do we find that indigenous people will shift sides for a dollar more? And at the bottom of this theoretical process, do these same people shift sides when the bad boys growl louder?

When a Commander is given this HTS system tool (which by the way isnt exactly new, different name though) and uses it to route the enemy yet is considered by the "on the ground avisors" to be heavy handed and outside the protocols of HTS, is HTS the right or wrong way?

If HTS saves an American Life, cool. If it creates an illusion of peace and harmony that eventually backfires and Americans are killed, then its bullshit.

Not a sold out fan for damned sure as it caters to, reports to, and is managed by Academics who many are solidly against the war. Yes, DrD, some success. Yes, there is value to be mined from it. But, this shit of thinking we will change, to any meaningful degree a mindset that has been in place for thousands of years is dream world. Are we not just trying to make ourselves more like and accepting of a culture that by in large....fucked up as a football bat. End stage. Someone tell me how many lives have been saved by it and on the other side, how many lost. Does the more lives one way or the other win?

[DrD]

A while ago, I posted on the Random Thought thread, the open call to *every* academic at *every* university around the world to work on the model for our Army that was originally posed to me to work on, and through which I spoke to many of you on this forum. It was after that call, that I was asked to stand down on that project and pursue a different one.

Clearly, this open call was a mistake on the part of Army Research, right? Academics WORLD WIDE working on that model? To simulate battlefield behavior for OUR guys to make decisions on?? So, Rock Island Ranger, I am not in disagreement with the supreme goat fuck that can and does happen when involving academia. Truly not.

But, I have had the opportunity to see a slice - a marrying of the two, that is effective and elegant. And usually occurs *because* a person in the academic community has a personal belief/association/etc with combat soldiers/pilots/etc. Each of those folks works their own little piece of the puzzle. They do not play with other pieces - only their own, and they are necessarily very quiet about their work. But, perhaps, out of respect for those that do such work and do, in the quiet, help save *our* guys' lives... perhaps folks can choose not to generalize the actions of some idiots to all. Even given the outspokenness of the idiots and the quietness of the few. :D

[panthersix]

It's not how, or who develops the information, it's how you use it.

[DrD]

It's not how, or who develops the information, it's how you use it.

Agreed. :D

[panthersix]

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how would HTT data and recommended techniques change the scenario depicted in that video?

[Darksaga]

LT, and anyone else who wants to weigh in. Nobody discounts the value of winning the hearts and minds of indigenous people. 1) However, what seems to me has happened is that we have layered upon Psy Ops an additional Academinc arm that has protested loudly enough that enhanced Rules of Engagement of been implemented at times. This "deep understanding" made the warriors hand a benevolent giver as well. So, did we and do we not pay for allegiance? Do we find that indigenous people will shift sides for a dollar more? And at the bottom of this theoretical process, do these same people shift sides when the bad boys growl louder?

2) When a Commander is given this HTS system tool (which by the way isnt exactly new, different name though) and uses it to route the enemy yet is considered by the "on the ground avisors" to be heavy handed and outside the protocols of HTS, is HTS the right or wrong way?

3) If HTS saves an American Life, cool. If it creates an illusion of peace and harmony that eventually backfires and Americans are killed, then its bullshit.

4) Not a sold out fan for damned sure as it caters to, reports to, and is managed by Academics who many are solidly against the war. Yes, DrD, some success. Yes, there is value to be mined from it. But, this shit of thinking we will change, to any meaningful degree a mindset that has been in place for thousands of years is dream world. Are we not just trying to make ourselves more like and accepting of a culture that by in large....fucked up as a football bat. End stage. Someone tell me how many lives have been saved by it and on the other side, how many lost. Does the more lives one way or the other win?

1) I hear you. This program is more about providing knowledge about the environment we are operating in. PsyOp and HTS have often worked well together given the similarities in some of their responsibilities. It is more about acknowledging boundaries of different brigade assets and sharing information (when implemented properly).

2) The Commander makes the final decision period. That being said if one has concerns that are voiced one best have viable solutions to present as well to give the commander the full scope of considerations. They also better be ready to accept a "No" by the commander and drive on to the next task. If these people cannot do those things then I would have no use for them.

3) If we are able to work with the population to appropriately address legitimate grievances then we can undermine insurgent groups and develop our own in roads.

4) By having the appropriate knowledge of the population verified by multiple sources in multiple ways we will have a better idea of what is going on. The purpose is not to change their culture or to make us bow down to their culture. It is to make us more effective in the operational environment through alternative means. In a counter insurgency if you are able to provide appropriate security measures then it is likely you will save lives on both sides. If little Achmed doesn't get ripped apart by a SAW for trying to toss an RKG-3 at a convoy then it is less likely his family will seek revenge for his death and ultimately lessen the violence and deaths all around.

[Darksaga]

1) So, Rock Island Ranger, I am not in disagreement with the supreme goat fuck that can and does happen when involving academia. Truly not.

2) But, I have had the opportunity to see a slice - a marrying of the two, that is effective and elegant. And usually occurs *because* a person in the academic community has a personal belief/association/etc with combat soldiers/pilots/etc. Each of those folks works their own little piece of the puzzle. They do not play with other pieces - only their own, and they are necessarily very quiet about their work. But, perhaps, out of respect for those that do such work and do, in the quiet, help save *our* guys' lives... perhaps folks can choose not to generalize the actions of some idiots to all. Even given the outspokenness of the idiots and the quietness of the few. :D

1) In many ways the implementation of HTS has been a goat fuck. What needs to be remembered is the concept of Socio-Cultural Dynamics and applying it to military operations, while not new, is a very good idea.

2) Amen

[Darksaga]

It's not how, or who develops the information, it's how you use it.

It's whether the information means anything in terms of saving our boys' lives or not.

Really, do I give that proverbial rat's ass whether some cultural nuance of the Pashtun tribe matters -- as long as they refrain from siding with and supporting the enemy?! No, I do not ... and I make no apologies if that makes me a heathen neanderthal.

Just because a *model* is worked on by academics *worldwide*, does not mean that anything constructive will ever result.

As if I want academics (no less) from Italy or Spain or France determining how our military deals with enemy combatants or even indigenous populations. :D

Q: How is it one al-Queda operative can go into a village in Afghanistan and walk out with the entire village and surrounding tribal members joining the fight against coalition forces? and do this repeatedly?

A: This one is simple... tribes stick together and in Islam a man is allowed to have up to four wives given he provides for them equally.

Q: Why didn't this work for AQI with the tribes in al-Anbar?

A: The tribes in al-Anbar intermarry solely between each other as a means of establishing and keeping tribal peace and according to some it is a tradition which predates Islam.

Q: Why is this important and how did it help save American lives in Iraq?

A: Helped us understand the motivations behind the Sunni Awakening and Sons of Iraq movement.

Bottom line is this... the more you know about the cultural you are operating in the more effective you are.

[Darksaga]

how would HTT data and recommended techniques change the scenario depicted in that video?

Honestly their actions are likely to have fed into the insurgent propaganda in the area.

A quick break down...

First raid sequence...

1. Iraq is a society and culture where honor and shame play large roles in daily life. So when the men are taken down they should have been taken outside of the house or away from the family before being detained. For the family... the men are being shamed in front of the women. It is likely when they returned home the women were beaten for seeing the men shamed.

2. Have the prisoners squat rather than prostrate themselves. For a serious Muslim one prostrates only before Allah in prayer.

3. No cursing or swearing. Iraqi's know much more English than they let on and again the offensive language was used in front of women which is most likely viewed as an insult as the women is the responsible for the mans honor.

Working with Iraqi Police

1. The Captain doesn't seem to have the correct perception of how the Iraqi police operated while Saddam was in power. It is far different than that of the US and other western nations.

2. The Captain claims there is no such thing as celebratory fire and that they killed two to three men on the way in. Iraqi law allows one AK-47 in the house for every male above age eighteen (I think). Also celebratory fire is common in Iraq. By killing those who were celebrating, if this is a heavy tribal area, there is now a blood debt to be paid for wrongful death. If not addressed the tribes will take out justice on those who were the same patch and not necessarily the people who did it as those with the same unit patch are seen as part of the same American tribe.

3. They take mortar fire and then arrest a man. The 1SG apparently speaks Arabic... which dialect of Arabic?

Second Raid Sequence

1. Unnecessary damage to personal property only goes to make the population more hostile towards the soldiers. Especially if again it turns out the person is innocent.

2. Again the man was taken in front of family. He was shamed in front of the women and his son. With being shamed in front of his son he may have decided to reclaim his honor by attacking the Americans at a later date and if killed would most likely draw the son in to reclaim his fathers honor.

3. Photo souvenirs? Are you fucking kidding me?