Recession?

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BruteForce
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Recession?

Post by BruteForce »

According to statistics published by the St. Louis Federal Reserve, we're in for a serious economic collapse (IMHO)

Check out these scary stats:

St. Louis Federal Reserve

In contrast, look at the huge spike of borrowed funds:
Borrowings of Depository Institutions from the Federal Reserve

The numbers that jumped out on non-borrowed reserves are:

2007-10-01: 42.252
2007-11-01: 42.281
2007-12-01: 27.154
2008-01-01: -3.879
2008-02-01: -17.591


Note how in 2008, we went from +27.154 to a -3.879 (in Billions $) :shock:

---

I may be a bit of a self-preservation nut, but I'm probably going to continue stocking up on ammo. and canned foods in the event that ~2008-2009 number becomes a reality. :roll:
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Post by BruteForce »

In reply to my own thread:

I just hope that 2008/2009 data is in error. The massive spike just seems outlandish compared to the other threads, but after reviewing the other FED data, it appears to be valid.

The amount of consumer debt incurred over the last 5 years is massive in comparison to the last ~40 years of recorded data.
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Re: Recession?

Post by lusus »

BruteForce wrote:According to statistics published by the St. Louis Federal Reserve, we're in for a serious economic collapse (IMHO)

Check out these scary stats:

St. Louis Federal Reserve

In contrast, look at the huge spike of borrowed funds:
Borrowings of Depository Institutions from the Federal Reserve

The numbers that jumped out on non-borrowed reserves are:

2007-10-01: 42.252
2007-11-01: 42.281
2007-12-01: 27.154
2008-01-01: -3.879
2008-02-01: -17.591


Note how in 2008, we went from +27.154 to a -3.879 (in Billions $) :shock:

---

I may be a bit of a self-preservation nut, but I'm probably going to continue stocking up on ammo. and canned foods in the event that ~2008-2009 number becomes a reality. :roll:
Help a Ranger out:

If you can take a quick break from stockpiling ammo, can you help me understand
1. How do those statistics show we are in for a 'serious economic collapse'? (Your words)
2. Why do you find these stats 'scary'? (your word)
3. What caused the swing in non-borrowed reserves from Oct 07 to Feb 08?

Thanks
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Re: Recession?

Post by BruteForce »

lusus wrote: 1. How do those statistics show we are in for a 'serious economic collapse'? (Your words)
2. Why do you find these stats 'scary'? (your word)
3. What caused the swing in non-borrowed reserves from Oct 07 to Feb 08?

Thanks
The number's are somewhat evident. Over the course of the last ~5 years, the amount of available cash (reserves) has been rapidly dwindling, while the number of consumer loans has skyrocketed.

Once the FED becomes depleted, the valuation of the dollar is even more reduced, making economic viability difficult.

Image

In essence, too much debt, coupled by a rapid depletion of the federal reserves = significant decline in the economy.

Image

As for your #3, I don't have available data, but I'll speculate that our massive spending (US Government) overseas (Iraq/Astan), coupled with the multi-trillion dollar debt is destabilizing our economy.

Also, I reviewed the currency exchange rate for China, India, etc - and it too has been on a fairly significant decline for the past few years.
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Post by BruteForce »

Oh, and I'm not (by a long-shot) a financial guru. I need to take the shoes off to count to 10, but the massive spikes in available reserves and consumer loans seems somewhat alarming, especially when trending back to ~1960.

If another theory or opinion can be offered, please share it.

Also, the gaff regarding stockpiling ammo, food, etc.. was in jest. :mrgreen:
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Post by Ardent Lady »

BruteForce wrote: Also, the gaff regarding stockpiling ammo, food, etc.. was in jest. :mrgreen:
At the same time, it might be a good idea...
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Post by RTO »

I hope some accounting guru made a mistake somewhere on those.....
and nice charts there...... Ross Perot! :shock: :D
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Post by lusus »

BruteForce wrote:
If another theory or opinion can be offered, please share it.
Here's my opinion. You are being sold a bill of goods by someone that either has bad intentions or is a fucking idiot.

The charts you posted do NOT show what you think they do. We are NOT on the edge of financial collapse (at least not for this issue!) The Fed is NOT out of money.

Try this thought experiment - you are the Fed. You are holding $50 in non-borrowed reserves. You make it easier to borrow money than before because you want to stimulate the economy and get bank activity moving. Your terms entices me, a bank, to borrow $60 using my bond portfolio as collateral. $50 (Non-B Res) - $60 (my borrowing) = -$10. Does that mean you (the Fed) are out of money? Answer: No, for two reasons. One, the loan is collateralized, two, the Fed creates money. By definition, it can't be 'out of money'.

The Fed is the one and only provider or reserves. It also sets interest rates via the Fed Funds and Discount rates. Banks lend that money, which increases money velocity, which makes the economy tick. But now credit markets are tight due to mark-to-market uncertainties. Right now the Fed wants to put more money out there and provide confidence to markets, so in December it created the Term Auction Facility, which provides a cost of funds that is cheaper than the Fed Funds rate. What did the banks do? Just what the Fed wanted, they borrowed more than they normally would have, making the negative number you see.

How's the TAF work? The Fed decided to make 28 day loans to banks based on a broader array of collateral than it had in the past. The loans are still fully collateralized, the terms are just more flexible with respect to securities pledged. This decision was, most likely, a response to the mark-to-market mess that was causing credit markets to go 'no bid'.

Don't get the idea everything is peachy - it isn't. But this non-borrowed reserve issue is irrelevant. Its an accounting trick, nothing more.

Hooah?
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Post by Ranger Bill »

The sky might not be clear blue, but it ain't falling either.
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Post by BruteForce »

While I don't believe the sky is falling, the significant spikes that are being shown (largest in over 40+ years of reporting) seem fairly significant in terms of total debt (etc.)

As far as "whom" is selling me shit, the facts come directly from the Federal Reserve, not some mutt off the street.

Interesting conversation, though. We'll have to see what the next ~6 months bring.

Heard on the radio today that nationally we've now hit 5% unemployment and ~80,000 job losses last month - the largest numbers in 5+ years. :roll:
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Post by lusus »

BruteForce wrote:While I don't believe the sky is falling, the significant spikes that are being shown (largest in over 40+ years of reporting) seem fairly significant in terms of total debt (etc.)

As far as "whom" is selling me shit, the facts come directly from the Federal Reserve, not some mutt off the street.

Interesting conversation, though. We'll have to see what the next ~6 months bring.

Heard on the radio today that nationally we've now hit 5% unemployment and ~80,000 job losses last month - the largest numbers in 5+ years. :roll:
Sorry if I wasn't clear...that spike doesn't mean jack shit and here's why. The Fed changed the rules but didn't change the way the data is reported. If the bank suddenly said you could pay your mortgage in bullets and you had a million, you would. If we then charted the Bruteforce mortgage history in US dollars it would go $1200, $1200, $1200, $0, $0, $0. So if an observer didnt know better he would conclude you were in default. Same thing here.

Next, of course the data is from the Fed. But I'll bet you don't monitor the Fed's non-borrowed reserves data on a regular basis. That means you didn't find it and its not your analysis, so a mutt is in the middle. If I'm wrong then kudos to you, you are truly a financial super geek. But speaking as a finance geek myself, I've never seen that data before you posted it, and then it only took me 15 minutes to figure out what the deal is. So how'd you get it?

Finally, unemployment is a coincident indicator at best, and I'd argue lagging. Do you disagree? And what's your take on all the stimuls recently pumped into the system, will the economy react as it normally does or is it different this time?
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Post by lusus »

This article is a towering monument to economic incompetence, and a shining example of how 'news' has become opinion designed to pursue an agenda. No effort at presenting objective facts here, and this is an AP 'Economics Writer.' Its shameful.

Her first paragraph says 'no longer a question of recession or not, just how deep and long.' We are ABSOLUTELY NOT in a recession right now as measured by government figures, and you CANNOT measure a recession via job losses. Its saying the 7.62 round is unreliable because your M-4 jammed.

A recession is measured by two consecutive periods of negative GDP growth. The last report showed 0.6% for 4Q07, and 3Q07 was 4% or something.

Some sectors of the economy are slowing, no question, others aren't, but this article and the 'economic' news in general have been convincing people we're fucked for the last 6 months.

If the Spec 4 mafia tells a newbie '5 more miles to the barracks' when its really half a mile, you can see him mentally quit. When the media tells people who don't understand economics 'we're fucked' you get the same thing. Widespread pessimism with no basis. Its an agenda.

Next sentence - 'job losses reaching the staggering level blah blah blah. This is pure editorializing designed to get you worked up. 250K jobs in no way 'staggers' the US economy, which has a workforce of more than 100 million.

Fun Facts: The average rate of unemployment from 1948 - now: 5.6% The average rate of unemployment through the entire 90's: 5.8%. Average rate of unemployment from 2000-now: 5.0%.
Unemployment right now: 5.1%. Feeling staggered?
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Post by RRDTm3 »

Lusus, you are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy smarter than most of us. I have to read your posts several times to try and understand, and I am not kidding.

The recession is here. Our economy is in the shitter and will stay there for quite sometime. The government figures get a bit of the curve if you ask me. All I know is that everything is more expensive and people can't afford to buy it. The avg family requires both spouses to work just to stay above the poverty line.

I am not wrong on this. Having never met you I would say you have a college degree, probably post grad too. you invest heavy and smartly.
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Post by BruteForce »

This is from Bloomberg.com as of this morning:

April 4 (Bloomberg) -- Federal Reserve officials signaled the central bank will keep lowering interest rates because financial markets remain distressed even after the fastest reduction of borrowing costs in two decades.

Fed Chairman Ben S. Bernanke told lawmakers yesterday that the central bank is ``ready to respond to whatever situation evolves,'' and cited ``considerable stress'' in markets.

Bloomberg full article

---
Again, I'm not a financial type at all. I've done well on my investments, but most everything is down ~25% for the past several months.

I do hope the facts that are being published are wrong, but the trend seems clear -- a heavy downturn in our economy.

Thus far, I've seen only a small handful of positive articles regarding the economy. Here's on opinion piece. Oddly most positive comments come from folks within the Bush administration.

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April 3 (Bloomberg) -- The resilience of the U.S. economy in the face of a devastated housing sector and a financial crisis is amazing. The severe recession some have predicted is still nowhere in sight.

The odds are at least 50-50 that the current period of economic weakness won't be labeled as even a mild recession.

Federal Reserve Chairman said as much yesterday in testimony before Congress's Joint Economic Committee.

``It now appears likely that real gross domestic product (GDP) will not grow much, if at all, over the first half of 2008 and could even contract slightly,'' Bernanke testified.

Even if there was a slight contraction, Bernanke said in response to a question, ``That doesn't necessarily mean there's a recession, because it would depend on the circumstances.''

His careful wording suggests he and other Fed officials think weak positive growth is a bit more likely than a slight contraction and clearly indicates they don't see a deep slump.

``We expect economic activity to strengthen in the second half of the year, in part as the result of stimulative monetary and fiscal policies,'' he said, adding that they think the economy will do still better in 2009.

That forecast is in line with those of a number of private economists.


We'll see what the next few months bring.
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