Is Combat making Ranger school unneccesary?
- rgrokelley
- Triple Canopy
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Is Combat making Ranger school unneccesary?
Combat Making Ranger School Unnecessary?
http://www.military.com/news/article/co ... =army-a.nl" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.military.com/news/article/co ... =army-a.nl" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A & C Company, 3rd Ranger Battalion 1984-1986
2/325, 82nd Airborne 1979-1984
F Company, 51st LRSU 1986-1988
5th Special Forces Group 1989-1995
3rd Special Forces Group 1997-1999
RS - DHG 5-85
2/325, 82nd Airborne 1979-1984
F Company, 51st LRSU 1986-1988
5th Special Forces Group 1989-1995
3rd Special Forces Group 1997-1999
RS - DHG 5-85
- MarineRanger
- Ranger
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Re: Is Combat making Ranger school unneccesary?
Good article ... I think this post in the comments section was a good analysis. .... except I believe RS is more than just a "combat simulator".
" The article is a little vague but I guess it's saying there are too few senior or junior NCO's volunteering for Ranger School? And that the reason they aren't is 1) they feel they've already proven themselves in real world combat and 2) they don't want to spend another 61 days away from family between deployments?
Well, no duh.
As terrific a tradition and leadership challenge as it is, Ranger School has always been a "combat simulator." We've been in real combat for the last 9 years. It's no shock troops don't feel the same need to earn a tab as "proof" of their ability as they did in the 90's. "
" The article is a little vague but I guess it's saying there are too few senior or junior NCO's volunteering for Ranger School? And that the reason they aren't is 1) they feel they've already proven themselves in real world combat and 2) they don't want to spend another 61 days away from family between deployments?
Well, no duh.
As terrific a tradition and leadership challenge as it is, Ranger School has always been a "combat simulator." We've been in real combat for the last 9 years. It's no shock troops don't feel the same need to earn a tab as "proof" of their ability as they did in the 90's. "
USMC 77-81
STA 2/9 3rd
Fox 2/9 3rd
RS 8-80 (5-4)
STA 2/9 3rd
Fox 2/9 3rd
RS 8-80 (5-4)
Re: Is Combat making Ranger school unneccesary?
There lies the problem- there are several Soldiers, several Leaders even, that have been to combat, most of them numerous times, and have taken the fight to the shitheads continuously and effectively. That in their minds validates the mentality of fuck the Tab, its a bunch of bullshit. Why go back to high school when you already have a college degree right?
In my not so expert opinion, the value of Ranger School doesn't become apparent until several years later when you have some perspective on it. That's when you gain the most lessons from it- whether that lesson was how long can you perform with out rest to how can I motivate others when I'm dragging ass myself and everything in between. But unless RS can figure out a way to stay current on everything as well as impart something to the studs going through it, it will continue to become less and less relevant while real bullets are flying. Once the shooting stops though, there will be an upswing in guys wanting to attend, because it will revert back to being the measuring stick of combat skill.
In my not so expert opinion, the value of Ranger School doesn't become apparent until several years later when you have some perspective on it. That's when you gain the most lessons from it- whether that lesson was how long can you perform with out rest to how can I motivate others when I'm dragging ass myself and everything in between. But unless RS can figure out a way to stay current on everything as well as impart something to the studs going through it, it will continue to become less and less relevant while real bullets are flying. Once the shooting stops though, there will be an upswing in guys wanting to attend, because it will revert back to being the measuring stick of combat skill.
RS 07 and 08-01 (I took the long tour in Florida)
1-508 ABCT
1-327IN
101st Pathfinder DS1
Iraqi Freedom 03-04, 05-06, 07-08
1-508 ABCT
1-327IN
101st Pathfinder DS1
Iraqi Freedom 03-04, 05-06, 07-08
- MarineRanger
- Ranger
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Re: Is Combat making Ranger school unneccesary?
From a Special Ops training perspective, I thought it was excellent and would recommend if you plan to move into those kind of operations.
It teaches you how, you react to extreme exhaustion, starvation, and sleep deprivation. It gives you an opportunity to train yourself to master those instinctual drives, to be able to ignore them instead of having them, rule you.
My 8th and 9th patrols were the very last two of the class ... so I think I got a little 'extra' in that area. And if you want to make sure you get them, all you have to do is screw up real bad.
It teaches you how, you react to extreme exhaustion, starvation, and sleep deprivation. It gives you an opportunity to train yourself to master those instinctual drives, to be able to ignore them instead of having them, rule you.
My 8th and 9th patrols were the very last two of the class ... so I think I got a little 'extra' in that area. And if you want to make sure you get them, all you have to do is screw up real bad.
USMC 77-81
STA 2/9 3rd
Fox 2/9 3rd
RS 8-80 (5-4)
STA 2/9 3rd
Fox 2/9 3rd
RS 8-80 (5-4)
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Re: Is Combat making Ranger school unneccesary?
I thought the purpose of all "pre-combat" training is to try to reduce the need for "combat experience" to create a more effective and thus more survivable combat force. I think a better question would be whether or not qualification badges and tabs should be eliminated except for dress uniforms.
Doc Mac
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Ranger Class 11-80
C.Co. WPNS 1/75 79-81
3rd Plt/498th Medevac 81-82
104th LRSD 92-93
422d CA BN (A) 94-97
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- MarineRanger
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Re: Is Combat making Ranger school unneccesary?
Panthersix,
My perspective may have been skewed, but it did seem to me that most people were in Ranger School for the wrong reasons. It seemed the majority were NOT there for the training, but only to get points towards promotions. And the whole process appeared to be quite politicized.
And I know one officer was there simply because Dolonega was his hometown, and he wanted the free airplane ride to visit family. What a waste of a slot.
I'm sure you're aware Marine Corp regs already disallow the wearing of the Tab on all marine uniforms. They are extremely strict about any service specific awards, and non U.S. awards too.
I'm not sure if a similar policy of no patches, etc. on BDUs, would be a plus or a minus for the Army. Maybe they could make it "optional" first. It would be interesting to see what would happen.
My perspective may have been skewed, but it did seem to me that most people were in Ranger School for the wrong reasons. It seemed the majority were NOT there for the training, but only to get points towards promotions. And the whole process appeared to be quite politicized.
And I know one officer was there simply because Dolonega was his hometown, and he wanted the free airplane ride to visit family. What a waste of a slot.
I'm sure you're aware Marine Corp regs already disallow the wearing of the Tab on all marine uniforms. They are extremely strict about any service specific awards, and non U.S. awards too.
I'm not sure if a similar policy of no patches, etc. on BDUs, would be a plus or a minus for the Army. Maybe they could make it "optional" first. It would be interesting to see what would happen.
USMC 77-81
STA 2/9 3rd
Fox 2/9 3rd
RS 8-80 (5-4)
STA 2/9 3rd
Fox 2/9 3rd
RS 8-80 (5-4)
- Roster#253
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Re: Is Combat making Ranger school unneccesary?
I can only speak to my own experience, but having RS under my belt as a field artillery officer being assigned to an airborne infantry company as an FSO was invaluable. Its more than just the premiere leadership school of the armed forces, it allowed me, and I have to imagine other like me without an infantry background, to hit the ground running when we showed up to our manuever units and do our jobs that much more efficiently.
RGR Class 8-00
82nd ABN (2nd BCT) 2000-2003 / OIF I
-CO FSO (C/2-325th AIR)
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82nd ABN (2nd BCT) 2000-2003 / OIF I
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-PL/XO (B/2-319th AFAR)
-RSO (HSB/2-319th AFAR)
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Re: Is Combat making Ranger school unneccesary?
There are alot of guys with the book ends (patches on both sleves) and a CIB and have a bad attitude about Ranger School. They figure they don't need it because they have been to combat and did just fine. But I see the guys with it do more and move harder and further than the guys without it, regardless of combat or not. They are always more motivated. Like one of my section leaders now. Brought in a Ranger Tab flag and paddles he bought in Florida. Everyone makes fun of him for it, but he is on top of everything and strives for combat readiness.
I havn't been in gound combat yet, but as a leader my tabbed guys are always my best guys. I know there are some turds that graduate from Ranger School, but atleast they are motivated turds.
And when you go to a board and they have 10 slots and 20 guys, who do you pick? Well who had a tab?
I havn't been in gound combat yet, but as a leader my tabbed guys are always my best guys. I know there are some turds that graduate from Ranger School, but atleast they are motivated turds.
And when you go to a board and they have 10 slots and 20 guys, who do you pick? Well who had a tab?
USS George Washington 97-00
HC-2 SAR 00-01
C CO 2-505 PIR 82nd ABN current
Ranger Class 1-11
HC-2 SAR 00-01
C CO 2-505 PIR 82nd ABN current
Ranger Class 1-11
- centermass
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Re: Is Combat making Ranger school unneccesary?
Bumping this necro post after reading a few of the very same thoughts. He said it better than I could.
Link
I was in Ranger Battalion and in Special Forces. I went to HALO school, attended the high-speed civilian driving and shooting schools. They were fun, but not nearly as important as the basic Infantry tactics that you learn in Ranger School. Mastering the basics is far more important for soldiering than the fun training that you see on television or in the movies. Enlisted and Junior NCO’s should be fighting each other hand over feet for a Ranger School slot.
No, I don’t think that a Ranger tab is the end all be all. Neither is a combat badge. For a lot of folks, it is a five-letter fashion statement on their uniform and that’s the wrong answer. It doesn’t make you better than anyone else, it makes you better trained, and when things get ugly in combat, fellow soldiers are going to be looking to you for a decision.
Think about it.
Link
RS 8-81
Mentor to Rock2/75
US Army Retired 1977-1999
Remember, always be yourself....unless you're Batman. In that case, be Batman.
Mentor to Rock2/75
US Army Retired 1977-1999
Remember, always be yourself....unless you're Batman. In that case, be Batman.
Re: Is Combat making Ranger school unneccesary?
Many years ago, I was a SSG with a Vietnamese Ranger Battalion. I spent 17 months in the unit -- we went to Cambodia. I went through OCS and after Jump refresher, started Ranger School. Did the mountains twice, pinched a nerve. When I graduate, the Mountain camp commander, LTC Moose Yon said "jim, which is wrrse-Viet-Nam or Ranger School?" My answer was"Ranger school, if you fuck up in Viet-Nam, you die--if you fuck up in Ranger School, they make you do it again."
Ranger Class 13-71
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42d Vn Ranger Battalion 1969-1970
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75th RRA Life Member #867
Advisor, VN 66-68 69-70
42d Vn Ranger Battalion 1969-1970
Trainer, El Salvador 86-87
Advisor, Saudi Arabian National Guard 91, 93-94
75th RRA Life Member #867
- Worldweaver
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Re: Is Combat making Ranger school unneccesary?
Hahaha, well put Sir...I hope the LTC found the humor in it.Jim wrote: if you fuck up in Viet-Nam, you die--if you fuck up in Ranger School, they make you do it again."
Go Tell the Spartans, stranger passing by, that here obedient to their laws we lie.
--Simonides
Bco. 1/75 2006-2010
RS 06-08
--Simonides
Bco. 1/75 2006-2010
RS 06-08
Re: Is Combat making Ranger school unneccesary?
He told the story many times.Worldweaver wrote:Hahaha, well put Sir...I hope the LTC found the humor in it.Jim wrote: if you fuck up in Viet-Nam, you die--if you fuck up in Ranger School, they make you do it again."
Ranger Class 13-71
Advisor, VN 66-68 69-70
42d Vn Ranger Battalion 1969-1970
Trainer, El Salvador 86-87
Advisor, Saudi Arabian National Guard 91, 93-94
75th RRA Life Member #867
Advisor, VN 66-68 69-70
42d Vn Ranger Battalion 1969-1970
Trainer, El Salvador 86-87
Advisor, Saudi Arabian National Guard 91, 93-94
75th RRA Life Member #867
Re: Is Combat making Ranger school unneccesary?
Just lurking...
L Company Ranger
RVN 70/71
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The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing. -Albert Einstein
RVN 70/71
75th RRA Life Member
The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing. -Albert Einstein