Serious disrespect, or is it just me?

[Jim]

It is you. John T. Reed is a graduate of the Ranger Course, and is known here. That's all.

[rgrwest]

Me as an instructor?
I later learned that the Ranger cadre had recommended me to be brought back as an instructor at the Ranger school when I saw that paperwork in my personnel file. I never did go back as an instructor. Thank God! (Never got asked or selected, he would have jumped on the chance!)

Because of their non-bureaucratic ways, I volunteered five times to join them. I was on orders to be transferred to 5th Special Forces Group (Green Berets) in Vietnam, but the orders were canceled for unknown reasons. (Gee, Wonder Why?)

There are few truly elite units in the military by objective civilian standards. I would list the following as truly elite military units by any standards:
The faculty at the U.S. Military Academy (West Point—may be true of Annapolis and the Air Force Academy as well. I wouldn’t know. A guy I roomed with for two years when we were cadets was the commander of this unit in the early 2000s, that is, he was the Dean of the Academic Board at West Point.)
The Navy’s Blue Angels (fighter jet acrobatic demonstration team)
The Air Force’s Thunderbirds (fighter jet acrobatic demonstration team)
Navy nuclear submariners (These are his list of Elite Units!)

Do the American taxpayers know that they are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars per student to send men through West Point, only to tell them to get lost as far as a military career is concerned a couple of months after they graduate? And that the criterion for ending a Ranger student’s military career is the whim of a sergeant with a double-digit IQ whose only life accomplishment consists of surviving Ranger School’s random-flunk-out game? (I will tell you now that a lot of your RIs that serve today are College Graduates and have intelligence far above that of a high IQ)

Don't read to much into this Asswhipes memories, he was a West Pointer who thinks he is elite for going to West Point. If you want to become a Ranger, you will find it both physically, mentally and emotionally challenging as anything you do. Ranger School is 60+ plus days of the suck. Being a Ranger is far more rewarding and will stick with you the rest of your life.

[Jim]

Served in Viet-Nam (1969 - 1970) as a SC oficer in a FA battalion. He was discharged as a 1LT, after four years on active duty. It was routine to promote to CPT with two years of active service.

[scar]

I'm not sure how Ranger School was in the 60's however if you have the drive and motivation to get that black and gold even if you have an RI that happens to hate you and he also happens to be your cadre for your patrol and you happen to recycle, there is always that second time around, most people don't make it straight through

[Bama_Ranger]

Let me tell you about my experience with a West Point class as a SSG. This happened in the early 80's at Camp Darby. It was a section sized combat patrol (2 squads, 2 M-60 MG tms, 26 studs total) which called for two RIs. SFC Dick Burbank was the PL grader, I was the APL grader. The studs consisted of 24 West Pointers, 1 ROTC officer and 1 SGT from the 82nd Airborne. It was a winter class, FEB I think; and when I got up at 0330 that morning it was cold and raining. I drove the 26 miles to Darby for a 0500 PI briefing, then Burbank and I linked up with our patrol in the planning bay at 0530.

It was one of those really miserable days with continuous rain and the temperature hovering just above freezing. These conditions continued through the planning phase, truck movement (air was weathered out), departure of lines, movement to the OBJ, actions at the OBJ and most of the movement to the patrol base. Not a pouring rain, mind you, but steady; all day and into long and into the night. About a half hour before we occupied the PB, the slow moving front blew over, the rain stopped, the sky got crystal clear and the temperature plummeted from the mid 30's to 18 degrees in about two hours. No question it sucked big-time, because we didn't wear rain jackets in those days and we were soaked. But keep in mind that Burbank and I weren't even wearing field jackets becasue RIs weren't allowed to wear them in those days. We could wear what ever hawk gear we could get under our cammies, but that was it.

About 3 or 4 hours into the patrol base, the PL comes over to SFC Burbank and says "Sergeant we've talked it over and we've decided that we don't need this #%$@." Burbank says, "What are trying to tell me PL?" The PL says, "I'm telling you that we want to go in." Dick Burbank looks at me in disbelief, then back at the PL and replies. "Ranger, when you say WE have talked this over and WE want to go in, who are you refering to?" The PL says, "I mean all of us." Dick lost it at that point and yelled, "RANGER, ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT THIS ENTIRE PATROL WANTS TO QUIT?" The PL, calmly and deliberately replied, "That's exactly what I'm saying." Burbank says, "I DON'T #@$%ING BELIEVE THIS; RANGERS, ON YOUR FEET AND GIVE ME TWO RANKS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PATROL BASE...RIGHT NOW!" The Rangers complied, Dick commanded "open ranks march", turned on his red filtered flashlight and went from face to face asking, "Ranger, do you want to quit? Do you want to LOM?" One after another the Rangers responded yes to both questions. Then Burbank looks at me and says, call Darby Control and tell the PI (Principal Instructor) that this entire &%$#ing patrol has quit Ranger School.

The PI thought I was joking. When I finally convinced him that I was not, he told us to move to the nearest road and await his arrival. We did. He went through the same drill as Burbank; formation; questioned each man individually; same result. At that point we loaded the WIMPs onto the truck and returned to camp. The PI put them in formation on the cables in the parking lot and told them to have a seat on their rucks. Then we went in to the RI shack and began guzzling coffee and thawing out.

About 30 minutes later, the PL knocks on the door: "Sergeant, can we move to the bivouac area to change clothes and get in our tents?" The PI responded "NO YOU CAN NOT!" The PL says, "But Sergeant, we're not in the course any more and we're freezing." the PI replied, "RANGER, I DON'T CARE IF YOU FREEZE TO DEATH, BUT YOU WILL NOT LEAVE THOSE CABLES AND YOU WILL NOT CHANGE CLOTHES! IF YOU'RE COLD, I SUGGEST YOU DO SOME PT, BUT YOU'RE NOT MOVING OFF OF THOSE CABLES UNTIL THE REST OF THE COMPANY GETS IN TOMORROW MORNING."

The following day, the patrol was transported back to BRD (Benning Ranger Division). The day after that the entire patrol was REINSTATED to the course, without question or comment, and they continued on to the mountains with their class, the whole affair having been swept under the rug. That had to have come from on high; how high, I don't know, but the entire chain of command from the post commander to the Ranger Department Director were West Pointers. Dick Burbank, the PI, and I were't even questioned extensively by BRD or Department HQs. I kid you not; one brief interview and that was it. It was a slam dunk. The WPs didn't have a leg to stand on. It was disgraceful behavior, in my opinion. It may be the only time in the history of Ranger School that an entitre patrol quit. It emphasized to me that West Pointers are elitists and play by their own rules, at times, and they stick togther...period. They cooked the whole thing up and even convinced the only two non-WPs to go along with them. "Hey, as long as we stick together, we'll be ok." They were right.

Don't get me wrong, I had the privledge of serving with some VERY fine West Point officers. I was extremely fortunate in that regard. But I firmly believe that no other group would have gotten away with that under those circumstances. Also, I have personally heard Ranger qualified West Point officers (typically captains) express that they did NOT like have to strip off their rank and be subjected to disrespectful treatment from enlisted men. I heard it enough to believe that it might be a relatively common attitude toward R.I.s among some members of that group. There were a couple of movements to change that aspect of how Ranger Training was conducted in my day; all started by West Point officers. Fortunately, they did not come to fruition. In all fairness, I don't recall ever hearing that sort of thing from a West Point officer in the 75th Regiment.

August 20 at 2:08pm · Like

[rgrokelley]

When I went to Ranger school, in the 80s, the entire platoon, with the exception of 3 NCOs, were from West Point. They also played the "lets stick together" game, but I told them to fuck off. This was when we were doing peer reports. They said that they would all give each other great peers, except one or two would be chosen to give mediocre peers, so that it would look random. I told them that the shitbags would be peered as shitbags by me and the good ones would be peered as good. They then told me that I had to do it that way or it wouldn't work. That is when I told them to fuck off.

Ironically, by the end of the course I had the highest peer rating, which contributed to getting Distinguished Honor Grad. I was surprised because I didn't sugar coat what I thought of the assholes.

To this day one shitbag, last name Malarky, is known. He ended up being assigned to the 25th Division as a lieutenant.

[Bama_Ranger]

West Pointers are dangerous when in a group but some can be good guys when they are separated away from the herd :-). With regards to the stories of West Pointers being indignant about being stripped of rank at RS, this is not a new phenomenon. I do know a West Pointer who retired as a LTC. He went to RS in the 50s, served in Vietnam, taught at West Point, blah blah. He tells of stories from back then about West Pointers being indignant during RS and RI NCOs telling them what to do. The ended up leaving the course.

To be honest, some of my closest friends while serving were West Pointers. Not only were they good friends, they were fine Officers as well. I did run into "ring knockers" that did there share to keep the stereotype alive and well. Heck...there were a couple of West Point females (married to West Pointers) I considered friends as well :-) I think with any group such as this, you will find those people who are good folks but unfortunately, a minority can be a catalyst for a "stereotype" and West Pointers certainly are stereotyped.

I agree with you. "West Pointers are dangerous when in a group but some can be good guys when they are separated away from the herd :-)." I served under quite a few West Pointers, in my time, and with the exception of one man (who was an arrogant rectal orfice extraordinaire) they were outstanding soldiers and Rangers.

However, as an R.I. I had WAY more trouble out of WP classes than other classes. It seemed that they were always trying to beat the system; and that they got away with it far more often than other Rangers. Not coincidentally, I believe, it happened when another West Pointer was in a position to give the thumbs up or thumbs down. The very first West Point class that I walked patrol with, an experienced R.I. said: "You gotta watch these guys carefully, they'll try to cheat." That class we caught them with ammo cans full of chow, vitamins and caffein tablets that they had buried in the bivouac area. I personally caught a patrol leader with a canteen full of M&M's. He didn't figure on the fact that they would rattle when he walked once he'd consumed some. They'd carry notes and marked maps on patrol and try to conceal them, and they ALWAYS covered for each other. It wasn't individual cheating, they conspired to cheat as a group. Read my previous post regarding an entire patrol quitting on a wet cold night. Apart from that night, I've never heard of such a thing happening on another occassion; ever. Essentially these guys decided amongst themselves that it was stupid to be that wet and cold, that there was no training value in it and that they could get out of it if they just stuck together. They determined that 24 West Pointers would not be allowed to fail as a group. If that many of the best and brightest had decided that conditions were too harsh for training, there must be some legitimate basis for the decision. They were right. It was just one thing after another with WP classes and that was characteristic of them in general. But every year, sure as clockwork, the WPs would graduate from IOBC, in mass, and here they'd come. You just knew it was going to be a headache and it usually was.

[NeverSayDie]

Rangers,

So the lesson here is beware of west pointers when in RS?

[KW Driver]

"if you ain't cheatin, you ain't trying. if you get caught, you ain't trying hard enough"

and something I teach my pilots is, "there may come a time to bend a rule. but you absolutely have to know what that rule is first, and you'd best have a damn good, defensible reason for why you did it, because it could cost you your Pilot In Command, wings, or even your career. questions? fine, IAW AR 95-1, if you violate an FAR or reg, what are your actions and time requirement for them?"