Possible combination of PFDR with RSLC

tnkr111 · Post by **tnkr111** » February 16th, 2008, 8:36 pm

Rangers, and gents,

i just finished up PFDR yesterday with Marine GySgt ****** (from RSLC) and we talked a couple of times during the course about the rumors floating around Building Snore that have Pathfinder getting folded in RSLC at some point. Clearly it is not a near term thing, nor anything set in stone. My take, not having attended RSLC yet, is that this is not good. I know the courses have some overlap, but is the overlap so great to justify shutting down Pathfinder Curse and folding it in RSLC?

tnkr111 · Post by **tnkr111** » February 17th, 2008, 8:31 am

Ranger Tenn-RGR,

Tenn-RGR wrote:You can learn the same amount of shit from OJT. People just gotta have their pretty badges.

Agreed.

Tenn-RGR wrote:...the average joe doesnt need to know how to set up a dropzone for 2 C-130's at night using a double roller CDS on a CARP drop.

True. However assuming that SKE is not in use, and the A/C are in trail, and below the planning AGL, it doesn't hurt to know that a 500x500 yrds DZ is required...so that someone can say this is dumb, set up a GMRS drop.

But I hear you, Ranger, the class beat my brains to a pulp, and a lot of it is just not going to be regularly used by me or many other big army types- though not all. I think the HLZ and PZ stuff is useful, especially for the new FSCs and other support units that are tasked to provide all kinds of resupply in places like A'stan, and at the same time just don't have a depth of experience in doing those types of ops. Truth told, we had a few Regt alumni and one guy from 7th Group in the class, and to a tee they all said, that they were already doing this stuff operationally with no "formal" training other than an FM and a cheat card.

As for the "track badge," I don't wear my flair anyways, so its just a nifty diploma on my "I love me" wall. Thanks for the perspective.

K.Ingraham · Post by **K.Ingraham** » February 17th, 2008, 1:24 pm

Combining Air Assault & Badgefinder should've happened eons ago, there there's signifigant overlap.

I wouldn't know squat about RSLC tho'.

RRDTm3 · Post by **RRDTm3** » February 17th, 2008, 1:37 pm

RSLC,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn.

It has taken those guys fucking years to catch up with what you need to do to be successful. Too many of those dudes are stuck with mind set of digging fucking holes and shitting in MRE bag's

tnkr111 · Post by **tnkr111** » February 17th, 2008, 7:14 pm

RRDTm3 wrote:It has taken those guys fucking years to catch up with what you need to do to be successful. Too many of those dudes are stuck with mind set of digging fucking holes and shitting in MRE bag's

Ranger RRDTm3, oddly the Gunny from RSLC that was in my PFDR class said similar things, usually finishing with "A recon Marine wouldn't be caught dead doing that shit."

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » February 18th, 2008, 1:56 am

Tenn-RGR wrote:If all you have to rely on is a schoolhouse train of though, then your shit is weak and you need to hang it up.

Damn fine statement.

Joshua · Post by **Joshua** » February 18th, 2008, 4:29 am

I don't understand all the courses you are referring to but here is my humble opinion.

My self being a pathfinder in the SADF underwent exactly the same training as the then SADF primary Reconnaissance Unit (The Recces) up to such an extend that we even participated in joint SF operations. But when it came to path finding especially to troops they prefer us to handle it, to such an extend that we were allocated to the Parachute Brigade on a full time basis. Being part of the Paratroopers you then come to understand an know how they operated and do things. But the Pathfinder in the SADF was not only to lay out a DZ or an Helicopter landing zone. Many times we had to infiltrate in , normally by parachute (Free-fall) into an target, check it out by OP's , report back to HQ, so that they can adjust the battle plan , then go an look for an DZ in the bush, lay it out,man it and then lead the planes in, lead the troops to the attack point. (At that stage GPS systems did not exist yet. You do it on a map and air photos).Once the operation were done we determine if any follow up operations were needed and destroy or capture any enemy equipment. You are then also responsible to lead then troops out again after the deployment and take them out of the area. Sometimes we will stay behind to monitor the return of the enemy and if needed disrupt their supply runs or call in an additional attack.

By doing it this way you maximize you application by being not only an airborne deployment specialist but also to be applied as a SF trooper in normal SF tasks.

Conclusion. I believe that all SF troops must be able to be Pathfinders as well to maximize you application.

PocketKings · Post by **PocketKings** » February 18th, 2008, 6:41 am

K.Ingraham wrote:Combining Air Assault & Badgefinder should've happened eons ago, there there's signifigant overlap.

I wouldn't know squat about RSLC tho'.

I agree. I also think the badges for both should be phased out. I'd even go one further and add fastrope and Heavy PZ with them and make it all a 4 week course. You'd end up with a bevy of skills all related to helicopter insertion and DZ/LZ/PZ setup.

LRS Guy · Post by **LRS Guy** » February 19th, 2008, 7:02 am

On getting out of the "dig hole/shit in MRE baggie" mentality....A big "Hell Yes!!". The Recon/LRS community needs to embrace new tactics and techniques to remain relevent. When we consider that many of our opns are taking place in urban and desert AO's. what worked in the woods of Europe or the jungles of SE Asia won't work here. (Though those tactics and skillsets need to maintained...may need them again.)

Just as the Ranger Regiment and the rest of the force has evolved over the past few years....so does the Recon/LRS community.

Phantom · Post by **Phantom** » February 23rd, 2008, 5:12 pm

RRDTm3 wrote:RSLC,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn.

It has taken those guys fucking years to catch up with what you need to do to be successful. Too many of those dudes are stuck with mind set of digging fucking holes and shitting in MRE bag's

I couldn't have said it better myself.

tnkr111 wrote:
RRDTm3 wrote:It has taken those guys fucking years to catch up with what you need to do to be successful. Too many of those dudes are stuck with mind set of digging fucking holes and shitting in MRE bag's
Ranger RRDTm3, oddly the Gunny from RSLC that was in my PFDR class said similar things, usually finishing with "A recon Marine wouldn't be caught dead doing that shit."

Neither would anyone in LRS.

Like Tenn-RGR said it is the schoolhouse and RSLC's POI is a few years behind current methods. It is RTB after all.

lonergr77 · Post by **lonergr77** » March 13th, 2008, 6:50 pm

Phantom wrote:
RRDTm3 wrote:RSLC,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn.

It has taken those guys fucking years to catch up with what you need to do to be successful. Too many of those dudes are stuck with mind set of digging fucking holes and shitting in MRE bag's
I couldn't have said it better myself.

tnkr111 wrote:
RRDTm3 wrote:It has taken those guys fucking years to catch up with what you need to do to be successful. Too many of those dudes are stuck with mind set of digging fucking holes and shitting in MRE bag's
Ranger RRDTm3, oddly the Gunny from RSLC that was in my PFDR class said similar things, usually finishing with "A recon Marine wouldn't be caught dead doing that shit."
Neither would anyone in LRS.

Like Tenn-RGR said it is the schoolhouse and RSLC's POI is a few years behind current methods. It is RTB after all.

The company I work for goes down to every class as part of their vehicle mobility day. They just bought some digital SLR's from us but only want to allot a whopping 2 hours of training on them. They are slowly getting better but still have a long way to go.

As for Pathfinder, let's face it there is not going to be a LRS/Recce team calling in and landing aircraft as long as 2-4 and the rest of the STS's are out there.