Shootings...

[rj50]

I have a question, but have to give a quick background first...If answering violates OPSEC at all, then please forgive my ignorance.

Approximately one year ago, I was involved in a shooting at a domestic that ended up in their driveway. He had a butcher knife and my avenues for a tactical retreat to the rear and calling for more troops were blocked by two cruisers. While backing up I bumped into one of the said cruisers, and realized that he was a little bit to close for comfort. My stumbling resulted in my Glock being held at hip level, so I did an "Oh fuck" and fired two from the hip at him (LEO's know what firing position I'm talking about).

Fuckbag gets hit both times, one in the stomach and one in the right arm. I had never shot anybody before, but I'm thinking "This shouldn't be a problem, he was within 21 feet, refused to drop it, and was advancing towards me."

So cut the story to when the bosses start showing up. Immediately the second guessing starts (why didn't you back off and call for backup, why did you let two go, blah blah etc...). I went through the usual ringer of IA and the DA deciding on whether or not I acted properly.

I was cleared, but it was still pretty stressfull (most Department's will hang you out to dry if the shooting is bad PR).

I don't think about it very often anymore, but something happened that reminded me of it.

Do servicemembers overseas go through this on a routine basis when they smoke somebody? I read the news and hear about "Investigations" regarding Soldiers shooting up bad guys. I mean it's a war zone...

In a war zone, I couldn't imagine shooting some fuckhead who's trying to kill fellow Soldiers and thinking "Great now here comes CID."

Or do you never even hear about it unless obvious red flags pop up?

btw...the fuckbag lived (albeit painfully for awhile), and I'm still not living it down :D [/i]

[cams]

Failure drill. 2 in the chest, 1 in the head.

[Silverback]

I read the news and hear about "Investigations" regarding Soldiers shooting up bad guys. I mean it's a war zone...

Quit watching CNN

[Parabellum]

As long as your not shooting someone that doesn't pose a threat then you are good to go.

If someone makes a move armed or not the use of deadly force is never questioned by the COC.

[Silverback]

As long as your not shooting someone that doesn't pose a threat then you are good to go.

If someone makes a move armed or not the use of deadly force is never questioned by the COC.

See...there you go again. The liberals have this perfectly good "We sent them there, but we don't allow to fight" disinformation campaign going and you ruin it.

[31B_Soldier]

rj50,

I can say that from my experiences, we had to write a quick report, basically a sworn statement, and then my chain would make sure we didnt just off some little kid for no reason. it only went over our companys heads one time because it was an Iraqi army officer in civvies who didnt ID himself and ran at our gate....sucks to be that guy.

[jakeshoe]

If you pistol punch a hadji who gets in your face, and the Army hears about it, you will be talking to someone about it... LOL. More of a check the block "investigation" but I know a guy who knows a guy who pistol punched a hadji :)

[smokn38]

From a LE perspective this should have been pretty easy to justify, with not a lot of questions. If your supervisors showed up and started questioning you shame on them, that is not the job of the first supervisors on the scene.

[archangel]

If you pistol punch a hadji who gets in your face, and the Army hears about it, you will be talking to someone about it... LOL. More of a check the block "investigation" but I know a guy who knows a guy who pistol punched a hadji :)

Think I know that guy too Ranger Jakeshoe. Any chance you know the guy who knew the guy that Bitch Slapped hadji with a grenade? Hes a Bad MOFO.

Back to the question at hand. It happens and I have wondered what would have happened to me if I the following scenarios had gone bad.

My first serious life or death run in with hadji involved myself, my TL, a grenade and a (im guessing) 12 year old boy who threw set hand grenade. After dodging the fragments, I gave chase and as I came around the corner I see 3 boys of the same size running away. It was a tight alley way for 3 kids to run down practically shoulder to shoulder. IE shooting the one would mean shooting all 3. I chose not to take a shot. Now would my COC have supported me? Doubtful, atleast not that with that CO. 2nd close call came during a 5 hour running gunfight with hadji. Somewhere between hour 3 and 4, my Squad was moving down a tight ally with less than friendly individuals poking there heads out from the front and rear. Everyone was thinking its only a matter of time before we're ambushed. I was in trail with a SAW, when suddenly to my exact 9 O'clock a door swung open(very quickly) from only 3 feet away. I drew down on the door the moment I detected movement, dissengaging the safety as I brought the weapon up to fire. I was a 1/100th of a second from pulling the trigger when me and the teenage girl locked eyes for a split second and she quickly slammed the door shut. As soon as I realized she was not a threat, that moment of eye contact, I threw(yes threw) my hand off the trigger assembly. Thats how close it had been. Took a real deep breath and put the weapon on safe. Would my COC support me if I had fired? Highly Doubtful, but I also doubt they would have ever found out either.

Incident #1 involved a car running a midnight checkpoint, but calling it a incidental polish ambush may be more appropriate. A reporter from Time Magazine just happened to come along for the ride on that night. I wasnt personally there, but this info came directly from a buddy that was. The car came at them in pitchblack conditions. Flood lights were turned on illuminating the car. It continued to drive forward. Warning shot was called and one shot was fired. The car gunned it. Everyone with a shot opened up to include a pair of 240's. The car eventually crawled to a stop having coasted just past the checkpoint. Both parents were dead in the front seat, grandma was also a gored mess in the back. However both children in the back were either slightly injured or uninjured. It was hard to tell because of all the blood that had been spilled. Time put the pictures taken in one of their articles but failed to explain how it happened. All the people saw was a boy and girl both around the ages of 3 and 6 screaming in the arms of our troops, their cloths with large spots of blood and thicker things. Times never came back to Tal Afar. After a LONG drawn out investigation it was determinded our guys acted with the ROE.

Incident #2 was repeated several times, but this particular one involved 2 local terrorists that got caught in the act of putting out an IED. They were caught with an outrageous amount of damning evidence. As soon as they realized they were fucked both individuals(despite being seperated) began to moan and whine as though they had been beaten. The moaning became near screaming once they reach the detention center. I personally escorted one of them to the detention center and testified that no violent hand or boot had ever touched him. This became a common tactic with the enemy in the months to come. CID investigated my PLT numerous times but could not come up with a single piece of evidence to support any misconduct on our part, other than the first lie detector test one of the PFC's took. We assume he failed because he was nervous, the next 2 he took he passed. Regardless it was unsettling to have up to 4 investigations going on at one time.

I can think of a few more incidents where our actions were questioned formally, but these few stick out the most. In hind sight, the investigations did exactly what it was suppose to do, determind if we were following the rules of land warfare and the ROE. Since we were, in theory we had nothing to fear. However, the feeling I got from CID was that they were out to make a name for themselves persai (sp?) and if they had had the slightest bit of evidence I suspect they would have tried. Overall I think that these investigations are nessicary and for the best, despite being a tremendous pain in the ass and also a tool for the self righteous and self serving. Ultimately these investigation will forever be evidence that US soldiers conduct themselves more professionally, more compassionately and with more restraint than any other nations army. Finally, it serves as evidence that we are not the Nazi Stormtroopers some would like the world to believe we are. We have rules, rules that are enforced when violated and clearly explain to all soldiers with a clear moral compass to guide each soldier. We are trained to be better than our enemies in all we do on the battlefield and I truely believe we do just that. So yes RJ50 it happens, but we certainly dont get 2nd guessed as bad as LEO's. I feel for you guys. I couldnt handle that much scrutinization, most of it unfair IMHO.

PHEW...that was a lot more than I intended to write. I apologize for that. A lot of this is preaching to the choir, sorry about that as well. Im short on time so any gramatical errors will be corrected later.

OH and for the record. The chick I nearly cut in half was pretty hot But probably needed a change of draws.

[rj50]

From a LE perspective this should have been pretty easy to justify, with not a lot of questions. If your supervisors showed up and started questioning you shame on them, that is not the job of the first supervisors on the scene.

Yeah the Sgt. was ok...he's been around so it was no biggie for him. It was when the administrators started showing up (along with a crowd of hispanics on the street) that things started to get bad. I had to demand that they read garrity. Outcry from minorities=bad ju ju. Part of the reason I'm looking to leave LE. It's cool and all, but way to many politics.

Anyhow, thanks for the answers...it definitely satisfied my curiosity.

[Myth]

[quote="rj50"]

(most Department's will hang you out to dry if the shooting is bad PR).

Man can I give you some stories that are comparable. Long & short of it our group goes out to do a “buy bustâ€

[Silverback]

There I was...Knee deep in expended brass and grenade pins.

[EvilCouch]

Do servicemembers overseas go through this on a routine basis when they smoke somebody? I read the news and hear about "Investigations" regarding Soldiers shooting up bad guys. I mean it's a war zone...

In a war zone, I couldn't imagine shooting some fuckhead who's trying to kill fellow Soldiers and thinking "Great now here comes CID."

Yeah. My PL investigated the shootings I did over there.

They took about 30 seconds apiece and boiled to down "So, you opened up with the .50 cal? Did he deserve it? OK. Make sure you and your boys clean your weapons."

[smokn38]

From a LE perspective this should have been pretty easy to justify, with not a lot of questions. If your supervisors showed up and started questioning you shame on them, that is not the job of the first supervisors on the scene.

Yeah the Sgt. was ok...he's been around so it was no biggie for him. It was when the administrators started showing up (along with a crowd of hispanics on the street) that things started to get bad. I had to demand that they read garrity. Outcry from minorities=bad ju ju. Part of the reason I'm looking to leave LE. It's cool and all, but way to many politics.

Anyhow, thanks for the answers...it definitely satisfied my curiosity.

I hear you. I don't play politics real well.

[Bravo57]

There were no investigations surrounding all the skinny's we smoked, jackslapped, flexcuffed hands to feet or anything else. Hell, if they didn't listen to us, we jammed the barrell of our weapon into their chest.

*shrugs* don't know about nowadays.