The Line Between Hazing and Training

[Spawn Of Zonk]

Rangers and other Forum Members alike,
For those who do not know, I am a Third Class Cadet (C3C, or Sophomore at a civilian college) at the United States Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, Colorado. For those unclear on USAFA, it is the Air Force’s (far superior) version of Army’s West Point and Navy’s Naval Academy; i.e. it is a four year college institution of which graduates are given a commission as an Officer in their respective branch. A major part of all three institutions is the rigors and stress associated with Freshman year. I am most knowledgeable on USAFA culture, so I will focus on what I know. As a Freshman (Doolie, Smack, Cadet Fourth Class, Four Dig, C4C, etc.) life is extremely strenuous. Doolies are not allowed to listen to music, watch movies, play video games, talk freely unless in the classroom or in their own room, must greet all upper classman and refer to them as sir/ma’am, must carry their backpacks as opposed to wearing them, must always wear uniform (no civilian clothes), must leave there doors open throughout the day, may not take naps, are put through training on a regular basis, must run whenever outside, etc. These rules hold true from the beginning of the academic year (early August) until Recognition, which happens to begin tonight at around 1700.
Recognition lasts a total of fiftyish hours, ending on Saturday. During these few days, the Smacks are put through a continual stressful environment, even from a Four Dig point of view: continual physical activities (“beatings” or training sessions), on the fly testing of knowledge learned through the year (often quizzed during said beatings), and the expected yelling/screaming atmosphere. All of the training is run by the upper three classes of Cadets. All in all, these next few days are highly intensive for the Freshmen. After the successful completion of Recognition (it is not a given that all Doolies will complete recognition, it must be earned) the Freshmen are given equal privileges to the upper three classes, essentially allowing them to be a normal person for the first time since they graduated highschool. After chatting with some of my friends in civilian schools on the topic of Recognition, the line between training and hazing comes into question.
Personally, I feel that Recognition is an essential aspect of any Military Academy. Recognition and Doolie Year is something that everyone at USAFA has gone through, creating a strong bond through controlled and common suffering. There is no physical contact throughout Recognition; no hitting, pushing, or physical pain of the kind. At any point throughout Recognition a Doolie can call “Knock It Off”, essentially saying they can no longer take the pressure and wish to give up. Although this is an option, the apparent pressure from their classmates and the upperclassmen to complete Recognition is huge. A Cadet not recognized after Recognition is irreversibly looked down upon for the rest of their Cadet career. If my point of view is not clear, I am of the group of thought that believes that Recognition is not “hazing”, but instead a highly essential form of training. I was hoping to get anyone else's thoughts on Recognition. Is this process a form of training in the outsider’s eyes, or is it simply a glorified and government sponsored version of hazing? Any thoughts are welcome, just curious on what other may think on the topic. Additionally, any questions regarding the process of Recognition, Doolie Year, or any other aspect of the Academy are welcome.

With Great Respect,
Spawn of Zonk
A-2 Element Leader, Cadet Squadron 34
United States Air Force Academy

[Baseplate]

Civillians have no concept of hazing. After I got out of the army I dated a girl who told me here sorority hazed her. I laughed in her face and kicked her out of my house. Needless to say it didn't work out

[Spawn Of Zonk]

Ranger Baseplate, Sir,
Although I agree that civilians have a skewed point of view on training in the military, I am still interested in what they may think. On a side note, my girlfriend went through her sorority's version of hazing but she has the fortitude to recognize the vast difference between our training, or "hazing", and her hazing... i.e. two days of physical exhaustion after almost a year of hell compared to her forced learning of "Sorority Songs and Culture."

SlyFox,
I agree that Recognition perhaps cannot be divided clearly into Hazing or Training but may be a combination of the two, I feel that your version of "getting smoked" when not performing up to par is similar to our Recognition and Training. Albeit, Recognition is more of a last "hoorah" that is scheduled despite performance as opposed to a specific punishment...

[fusion94]

While I would never consider your description of Recognition as any form of hazing I can however understand how civilians could construe it as such.

The real lesson in Recognition is to get you to think on your feet while under stressful sub-optimal conditions. If you can get through it and continue to operate at a functional level then you're only preparing yourself for the future. That future might include battlefields in Afghanistan or Iraq or it could be a battle in a board room some where. Either way the ability to think clearly and provide concise answers to the questions at hand is something one will find very useful.

[Spawn Of Zonk]

fusion94,

I think that your point of view is one of the most concise, and perhaps helpful descriptions for those not involved in USAFA or the military. Perhaps if the average civilian can recognize this potential use of Recognition and military training in general there would be less of a mental gap between the Military and Civilians...

[fusion94]

fusion94,

I think that your point of view is one of the most concise, and perhaps helpful descriptions for those not involved in USAFA or the military. Perhaps if the average civilian can recognize this potential use of Recognition and military training in general there would be less of a mental gap between the Military and Civilians...

Over the course of my careers I've done battle in both Iraq and in board rooms. The training I received as a Cadet at Marion Military Institute and as an Enlisted Infantryman has helped me out across the board in all endeavours.

Now go study!!!

[Spawn Of Zonk]

Yes Sir...

[garyedolan]

As a '69 USMA grad, I know that what we went through back then in "Bracing" and other gross treatments as a Plebe and what I was basically forced to do while a "Cow (Junior)" during Beast Barracks to the new Plebes was HAZING-pure & simple. I have always been delighted at the inception of the USAF, because it was not steeped in rediculous & meaningless traditions like USMA and it influenced and caused many worthwhile and modernizing effects upon my beloved Academy. During my time, the Plebes were not "Recognized" in mass until Graduation Day, although a Firstie (Senior) could at any time during the year for his own purpose "Recognize" a Plebe.
Just as what is moral as opposed to immoral is a line that changes based on time, place, situation, custom and even civilization; the line between hazing and training is subject to interpretation. Look inward to determine if the act is meaningful and not simply hurtful; if it serves a purpose for the recipient and not merely a show of bravado for the donor; if it is injurious with no redeeming value, then look inward & you will know. Certainly, do not waste a moment considering the unenlightened opinion of civilians on this subject, as they can have no appreciation of the subject.
.
.
By the way, Zoomie, I am still waiting...

[Oto-Man]

By the way, Zoomie, I am still waiting...

OH shit Sponk, Gary ain "Chuck Norris" but he don't forget!!!!


2nd Batt. is well known for "Hazing" (especially A Co--I was in B Co and we still had our own party to deal with)...it wasn't fun, but when conducted under the right circumstances it was very effective training for unit cohesion and developing a "team" mentality...there are many opinions for and against...I say what they are doing there is prolly GTG... .02

[Bravo57]

Civillians have no concept of hazing. After I got out of the army I dated a girl who told me here sorority hazed her. I laughed in her face and kicked her out of my house. Needless to say it didn't work out

Go away

Sponk, (thanks Oto)
There is a fine line between Hazing and remedial training. I was raised in a Hazing environment. I, also hazed some young Rangers. As I got more situational awareness, I learned the difference between the two. Read that last sentence as, "I gained experience" and knew what was appropriate and what was not. Getting Recognized is a big deal in the Academy. Most people don't know how much blood, sweat and tears go into getting to that "group".

Civilians will never understand the bonds that are made going through a situation like you have been through. It's all about the bonding. It's what makes us (you) special.

[Spawn Of Zonk]

Ranger garyedolan, Sir,
I am almost complete with your book and apologize for the truancy of my response. Although I do not wish to make excuses, due to my major I am in the process of juggling several different books on military thought, psychology of militias, cause of terrorist thoughts, etc. I do not want to mix up your book with the several others that I reading, and thus have been waiting for my academics to cool down a bit. I will have your report as soon as possible, academics permitting. Additionally, I cannot image what Plebe Year was like back in the day...

Ranger Otto-Man, Sir,
I agree that some proper "training" hugely helps create a team bond, something often lost among civilians.

Ranger Bravo57, Sir,
I feel that you are on to something regarding gaining experience in order to train properly. The difference between the sophomores and the seniors training the freshmen during Recognition is HUGELY noticeable.

[snafu]

What my 1st squad leader told me: It becomes hazing once there is no training value in it. Hazing can be a sort of right of passage, which builds comraderie and unit cohesion. However, hazing can turn into a straight up smoke fest if there is no right of passage agenda. And smoke sessions are not always bad as long as they are deserved and serving a greater good...like an off the record punishment.

[Caruthers]

I have been on both ends of both situations.

As a cherry piece of whale shit..........Alphabot, Badmuther, Maggot...........pvt; we got our shit pushed in for about the first 5 days(first 5 days of Batt). Some of it was good ole fashion wall to wall, other stuff was a "bit" overboard.

As I gained responsibility, my view on :why, how, and when "remedial" training evolved as well. There are always a: right reason, time and place.

Having the bored Spec 4 mafia after you.......after hours is one thing. Being part of the Mafia is something different. We tended to start policing up ourselves after awhile. A few of the mafia crossed way over the line and paid for it dearly. Not only from their peers; but from the NCO's and being RFSed......ie sent down the road (even had the RSM come give the NCO's a talking to) it slowed down........a little.
Seen grown men, true hard asses, standing in front of the Company and get their scroll yanked and cry. One of the worst smoking's I ever endured was when my SL looked at me and told me"I am deeply disappointed in your actions." and walked away. To this day it turns my stomach that he did not even lay a hand on me..............I would rather he take me behind Noble Hill and make me tunnel back through like an earthworm.

At no time did I think I was "hazed". I can remember being very angry at having to do stupid shit.....for hours on end. But I can tell stories to civilians and they are like "Why did you "let" them do that?" or " Why did you make them do that stupid stuff?" As I look back at most of it..........culture of the Alphabots is the dominate answer. Culture of not taking or making excuses. Paying for it. Proving that I would not quit under any and all circumstances (other than marriage). It damn sure made us respect every one in Bad Mutherland........

Those very valuable lessons have never left me. Some people to this day don't get my mindset or disposition.