The Line Between Hazing and Training

General Discussions for all members.

Moderator: Site Admin

User avatar
Bravo57
Ranger
Posts: 5425
Joined: July 31st, 2004, 6:04 am

Re: The Line Between Hazing and Training

Post by Bravo57 »

Spawn Of Zonk wrote:
Ranger Bravo57, Sir,
I feel that you are on to something regarding gaining experience in order to train properly. The difference between the sophomores and the seniors training the freshmen during Recognition is HUGELY noticeable.
Then you "get it" young padiwan!

Make sure you learn what "not to do" from those who don't get it, and incorporate "those that do it right" into your training. Good luck.


P.S. I still want my ride :D
B Co. FIST 3/75 Rgr Rgt.
1991-2000
RS 9-92
Task Force Ranger 1993


For those who fight for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
User avatar
al_2ndWolfhounds
Ranger
Posts: 2033
Joined: November 3rd, 2009, 11:50 am

Re: The Line Between Hazing and Training

Post by al_2ndWolfhounds »

Spawn,

Learning how to maintain your presence of mind under extreme or life threatening conditions is not something most civilians will ever face. Hazing the first year cadets, students in many of our military Special Operation schools and during a smoking in period for our elite units is a way to condition that ability to keep your head while others may not. This enables the warrior to succeed where others may fail.
Last edited by al_2ndWolfhounds on March 11th, 2010, 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RLTW

Active service 01/67-12/73
Ranger Class 10-68
2/27 Inf 25th Inf Div Vietnam 01/69-01/70

"In America, anybody can be president. That's one of the risks you take." - Adlai Stevenson (1900-1965)
“The enemy is anybody who’s going to get you killed, no matter which side he is on.” – Joseph Heller, Catch-22
User avatar
Bravo57
Ranger
Posts: 5425
Joined: July 31st, 2004, 6:04 am

Re: The Line Between Hazing and Training

Post by Bravo57 »

al_2ndWolfhounds wrote:Spawn,

Learning how to maintain your presence of mind under extreme or life threatening conditions is not something most civilians will ever face. Hazing the first year cadets, students in many of our military Special Operation schools and during a smoking in period for our elite units is a way to condition that ability to keep your head while others may not. This enables the warrior to succeed where other may fail.
Outstanding Post!
B Co. FIST 3/75 Rgr Rgt.
1991-2000
RS 9-92
Task Force Ranger 1993


For those who fight for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
Darksaga
Soldier
Posts: 1264
Joined: June 30th, 2005, 9:16 am

Re: The Line Between Hazing and Training

Post by Darksaga »

snafu wrote:What my 1st squad leader told me: It becomes hazing once there is no training value in it. Hazing can be a sort of right of passage, which builds comraderie and unit cohesion. However, hazing can turn into a straight up smoke fest if there is no right of passage agenda. And smoke sessions are not always bad as long as they are deserved and serving a greater good...like an off the record punishment.
Spawn,

I would suggest keeping the above close to heart. There will always be some who possess a sadistic streak and you need to watch for those. It takes wisdom and discretion to know when to say enough is enough. It is never the purpose of training for a person to get hurt. The purpose of the training you speaking of is to build accountability and discipline; not to break the person. This also affords the oppurtunity for the cadets to build leadership which is the most important part of this whole exercise.

BTW I will be down you way Monday due to another screw up I need to address at Carson. You up for lunch?
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henery Louis Mencken (1880-1956)

"I might not be Airborne however, it's whats on my right sleave!"
*1992-1996 USMC CPL
* 12/2005- present USAR Medic PL/ Human Terrain Teams
User avatar
Silverback
Ranger
Posts: 20118
Joined: March 7th, 2004, 11:06 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: The Line Between Hazing and Training

Post by Silverback »

This is a story I have read several times. SInce I couldn't remember it word for word I searched it and this is a direct quote from a blog

This story starts with a cage containing five gorillas and a large bunch of bananas hanging above some stairs in the center of the cage. Before long, a gorilla goes to the stairs and starts to climb toward the bananas. As soon as he touches the stairs, all the gorillas are sprayed with cold water. After a while, another gorilla makes an attempt and gets the same result - all the gorillas are sprayed with cold water. Every time a gorilla attempts to retrieve the bananas, the others are sprayed. Eventually, they quit trying and leave the bananas alone.

One of the original gorillas is removed from the cage and replaced with a new one. The new gorilla sees the bananas and starts to climb the stairs. To his horror, all the other gorillas attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs he will be assaulted. Next, the second of the original five gorillas is replaced with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm.

Next, the third original gorilla is replaced with a new one. The new one goes for the stairs and is attacked as well. Two of the four gorillas that beat him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in the beating of the new gorilla.

After the fourth and fifth original gorillas have been replaced, all the gorillas that were sprayed with cold water are gone. Nevertheless, no gorilla will ever again approach the stairs. Why not?

Because that's the way it has always been done.
RC 2-87
3-75 84/85, 95/97
"thnks 4 pratn merku!"
User avatar
Silverback
Ranger
Posts: 20118
Joined: March 7th, 2004, 11:06 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: The Line Between Hazing and Training

Post by Silverback »

Bravo57 wrote:
al_2ndWolfhounds wrote:Spawn,

Learning how to maintain your presence of mind under extreme or life threatening conditions is not something most civilians will ever face. Hazing the first year cadets, students in many of our military Special Operation schools and during a smoking in period for our elite units is a way to condition that ability to keep your head while others may not. This enables the warrior to succeed where other may fail.
Outstanding Post!

It's called "Stress inoculation"
RC 2-87
3-75 84/85, 95/97
"thnks 4 pratn merku!"
Dan B 3/75
Ranger
Posts: 470
Joined: February 13th, 2010, 12:33 pm

Re: The Line Between Hazing and Training

Post by Dan B 3/75 »

IMO there is a place for both "hazing" and punishment, but none for abuse:


Hazing - instilling camaraderie, creating physical and mental toughness, creating and upholding tradition and unit espirit.

Punishment- something associated with unwanted behavior to create a conditioning effect that reduces the chances of unwanted behavior being repeated.

Abuse- causing physical damage or injury, humiliation, or deprivation unassociated with unwanted behavior.

I've seen all three.

There is a fine line between them all, and it takes experience to ensure that events are not simply abuse.
User avatar
Spawn Of Zonk
Tadpole
Posts: 103
Joined: August 13th, 2008, 7:51 pm

Re: The Line Between Hazing and Training

Post by Spawn Of Zonk »

All Rangers Concerned,
Thank you for all of the excellent responses, I am sure I will passing along much of this advice. We are three hours in to Recognition, the Doolies are performing in outstanding fashion, and I am also personally beat to hell. It is rather interesting seeing all of the different styles of leadership, training, hazing, etc.

Darksaga, Sir,
I will try and free up my schedule, but as of right now I am busy until around 1800 (classes, PE water survival, and volleyball intramurals) I will let you know if I can get off earlier...
Never Falter, Never Fail

"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference."
-Robert Frost

Mentee of Ranger Zonk 1/75
BadMuther
BANNED
Posts: 7970
Joined: March 14th, 2003, 2:13 am
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: The Line Between Hazing and Training

Post by BadMuther »

Caruthers wrote:I have been on both ends of both situations.

As a cherry piece of whale shit..........Alphabot, Badmuther, Maggot...........pvt; we got our shit pushed in for about the first 5 days(first 5 days of Batt). Some of it was good ole fashion wall to wall, other stuff was a "bit" overboard.

As I gained responsibility, my view on :why, how, and when "remedial" training evolved as well. There are always a: right reason, time and place.

Having the bored Spec 4 mafia after you.......after hours is one thing. Being part of the Mafia is something different. We tended to start policing up ourselves after awhile. A few of the mafia crossed way over the line and paid for it dearly. Not only from their peers; but from the NCO's and being RFSed......ie sent down the road (even had the RSM come give the NCO's a talking to) it slowed down........a little.
Seen grown men, true hard asses, standing in front of the Company and get their scroll yanked and cry. One of the worst smoking's I ever endured was when my SL looked at me and told me"I am deeply disappointed in your actions." and walked away. To this day it turns my stomach that he did not even lay a hand on me..............I would rather he take me behind Noble Hill and make me tunnel back through like an earthworm.

At no time did I think I was "hazed". I can remember being very angry at having to do stupid shit.....for hours on end. But I can tell stories to civilians and they are like "Why did you "let" them do that?" or " Why did you make them do that stupid stuff?" As I look back at most of it..........culture of the Alphabots is the dominate answer. Culture of not taking or making excuses. Paying for it. Proving that I would not quit under any and all circumstances (other than marriage). It damn sure made us respect every one in Bad Mutherland........

Those very valuable lessons have never left me. Some people to this day don't get my mindset or disposition.

Preach it brother!!
User avatar
Spawn Of Zonk
Tadpole
Posts: 103
Joined: August 13th, 2008, 7:51 pm

Re: The Line Between Hazing and Training

Post by Spawn Of Zonk »

Ranger Zonk 1/75, Father, Daddyman, Sir,
I am attempting to juggle training and the ArmyRanger.com forum... I will do better. And yes, I have been down with them doing everything with them that I expect of them....
Never Falter, Never Fail

"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference."
-Robert Frost

Mentee of Ranger Zonk 1/75
User avatar
hobbit
Rest In Peace Ranger
Posts: 1982
Joined: December 6th, 2004, 10:09 pm

Re: The Line Between Hazing and Training

Post by hobbit »

Hazing promotes humility. Humility strips self-importance and provides a good foundation on which to build self-confidence. Self-confidence is probably the most important trait of character for leaders. That's why our acadamies exist: to build leaders.

And on another historical note: My jump school class at Ft. Benning back in 1968, had 168 Air Force Academy students included. One of them had a four-star general for a dad. He decided to send some C141 transport jets down to Benning for our first jump. Thus we were the first jump school class in history to jump from jets. We had the Air Force Academy to thank for that.
L Company Ranger
RVN 70/71
75th RRA Life Member

The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing. -Albert Einstein
Dan B 3/75
Ranger
Posts: 470
Joined: February 13th, 2010, 12:33 pm

Re: The Line Between Hazing and Training

Post by Dan B 3/75 »

hobbit wrote:Hazing promotes humility. Humility strips self-importance and provides a good foundation on which to build self-confidence. Self-confidence is probably the most important trait of character for leaders. That's why our acadamies exist: to build leaders.

And on another historical note: My jump school class at Ft. Benning back in 1968, had 168 Air Force Academy students included. One of them had a four-star general for a dad. He decided to send some C141 transport jets down to Benning for our first jump. Thus we were the first jump school class in history to jump from jets. We had the Air Force Academy to thank for that.

The Cadillac of the sky!

I always liked jumpin' 141's, though the 117 is fucking SWEEEEET!!!
panthersix
Ranger
Posts: 2888
Joined: June 14th, 2008, 4:27 pm

Re: The Line Between Hazing and Training

Post by panthersix »

I was a pledge before joining the Rangers and I was THE Pledge Master after going back to my Fraternity upon my ETS (yep a Ranger Q'd PM). As long as alcohol isn't involved and you have a voice of reason, then you can call it training or a rite of passage. But there are some brutal and sadistic SOB's out there that don't know when to quit.

I got booted out of my Fraternity for kicking the ass of my successor as Pledge Master because he was a sadist and was making the pledges do things that he never had to do as a pledge.
Doc Mac
Ranger Class 11-80
C.Co. WPNS 1/75 79-81
3rd Plt/498th Medevac 81-82
104th LRSD 92-93
422d CA BN (A) 94-97
118th ASOS 02-08
User avatar
Jim
Rest In Peace Ranger
Posts: 21935
Joined: March 8th, 2005, 10:48 am
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: The Line Between Hazing and Training

Post by Jim »

snafu wrote:What my 1st squad leader told me: It becomes hazing once there is no training value in it. Hazing can be a sort of right of passage, which builds comraderie and unit cohesion. However, hazing can turn into a straight up smoke fest if there is no right of passage agenda. And smoke sessions are not always bad as long as they are deserved and serving a greater good...like an off the record punishment.
I agree with this. I was in one of the last "long" (23 week) Infantry OCS classes. The first few weeks, we were subjected to a lot of screaming and shouting by the tactical officers in the company. To most of us who had already been to Viet-Nam, it was all a game to be endured. I agree that a good smoke session builds esprit. As none of the tacs had been in combat, we saw them as immature tyrants and laughed about them behind their backs. The company XO was in my initial Ranger class, and he quit before we got out of the first week at Benning. When it becomes hazing it loses its value.
Dan B 3/75 wrote:There is a fine line between them all, and it takes experience to ensure that events are not simply abuse.
True! No soldier should be abused without reason.
Ranger Class 13-71
Advisor, VN 66-68 69-70
42d Vn Ranger Battalion 1969-1970
Trainer, El Salvador 86-87
Advisor, Saudi Arabian National Guard 91, 93-94
75th RRA Life Member #867
Post Reply

Return to “The Mosh Pit”