Ranger School Is Not A Leadership School

Three phases and 62 days of hell. This section named in honor of MAJ John Whyte who was taken from us on 04/17/05.
Post Reply
User avatar
Jim
Rest In Peace Ranger
Posts: 21935
Joined: March 8th, 2005, 10:48 am
Been thanked: 1 time

Ranger School Is Not A Leadership School

Post by Jim »

Ranger School Is Not A Leadership School



http://havokjournal.com/culture/militar ... -school/2/
Ranger Class 13-71
Advisor, VN 66-68 69-70
42d Vn Ranger Battalion 1969-1970
Trainer, El Salvador 86-87
Advisor, Saudi Arabian National Guard 91, 93-94
75th RRA Life Member #867
User avatar
centermass
Ranger Admin/RIP Ranger
Posts: 5895
Joined: February 26th, 2005, 11:32 am
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Ranger School Is Not A Leadership School

Post by centermass »

Not for nothing....deep breath here.....but......

Yes, candidates are expected to know the basics of leadership before arriving, but believe me, once you've been through it, you've picked up more examples in leadership by learning, doing and association with some of the Army's finest, than you ever realized. The one thing you learn more than anything else, is yourself.

Based on my experience, I take issue with Maj. Spencer's assessment. I am one of a handful of instructors, to have worked all 4 phases while at the department. I've graded both instructors and students. While the the author makes some salient points, I'd like to point out for those not aware - most of the O-4's time while assigned to any of the phases is administrative, whether it's Benning, Darby, Dahlonega, or Eglin. The NCO's and Tm OIC's (1st Lt's and Cpt's) are the ones who have majority of contact with the students more than anyone. (And yes, I realize he's a former NCO)

And as such, your mission focus is (Was) to train, advise, mentor and evaluate.

Granted, some things have changed over the years, that's a given. However, it's the diversity amongst the numerous instructors, that students are exposed to, and the knowledge that's passed along and implemented, while experiencing some of the most arduous and extreme conditions one will be exposed to.

What works in one situation, may not work in another....situation, mission and environment dictating (Think METT-T) If the good Major was truly doing his job, he should have been mentoring / teaching leadership principles, in addition tactics and techniques. And as a student, you will come in contact with who knows how many RI's during the course, that do exactly that.

Teach them what needs to be done when you have a squad / section/ plt size element with a couple of unmotivated performers, leadership principles and how they apply and modified in strenuous situations, arduous environments and conditions. How leaders are supposed to communicate, the 5 w's, how to integrate the principles of patrolling into all facets of a mission, and a whole lot more, too long to list.

Sorry major, but I for one, ain't seeing it. Your POV that is. If you weren't teaching leadership principles and techniques during your tenure, you were a No Go at this station. Have fun at West Point. I'm sure there are absolutely no leadership problems that need to be addressed there...cough cough.... :roll:
RS 8-81
Mentor to Rock2/75
US Army Retired 1977-1999

Remember, always be yourself....unless you're Batman. In that case, be Batman.
User avatar
Jim
Rest In Peace Ranger
Posts: 21935
Joined: March 8th, 2005, 10:48 am
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Ranger School Is Not A Leadership School

Post by Jim »

centermass wrote: December 11th, 2017, 5:24 pm Sorry major, but I for one, ain't seeing it. Your POV that is. If you weren't teaching leadership principles and techniques during your tenure, you were a No Go at this station. Have fun at West Point. I'm sure there are absolutely no leadership problems that need to be addressed there...cough cough.... :roll:
Agree with everything Centermass wrote. When I went to Ranger School, we were tested from the moment we arrived until we graduated. I, too, am glad there are no leadership issues at USMA. RLTW!
Ranger Class 13-71
Advisor, VN 66-68 69-70
42d Vn Ranger Battalion 1969-1970
Trainer, El Salvador 86-87
Advisor, Saudi Arabian National Guard 91, 93-94
75th RRA Life Member #867
KW Driver
Ranger/Moderator
Posts: 6581
Joined: December 8th, 2004, 2:20 pm

Re: Ranger School Is Not A Leadership School

Post by KW Driver »

I don't know that I do disagree with the Maj. that mirrored my experience more than Centermass' description.

maybe it's having been a Batt Boy. I don't know that I saw much nudging in the right direction, so much as an expectation that I/we'd perform to standard or get justly no-go'd for it. maybe I was too tired to see mentoring for what it was.

at Benning we saw how they were assigning the squads and 4 of us shuffled around to stack our squad. an RI caught us and asked if we were batt boys,... Roger Sarn't. y'all set? roger sarn't.

my import SL, former RI came by the pool during the swim test to ensure I got properly motivated by his buddy.

during end of phase we talked about my peers... low 80s%, mid squad. "technical/tactical guru, but a huge asshole". RI asked if I was a Batt Boy. yep. "fuck 'em" he replied. didn't say he was a batt boy too, but I got that impression.

I got dropped in Mountain academics/lowers to the tune of about 400 push ups a day (by roster number) by a former SL in my Company to imprint my roster number in the other RIs heads so that I'd be properly challenged (his words). another RI was so annoyed with hearing my RN during lowers that he asked me if understood the concept of grey manning a course. I replied it was hard to do when an RI came out of your company at BN. no more grief from annoyed RIs. he also spot checked me during patrols and ensured I saw him scoping me when he wasn't grading anywhere near my squad. keeping me motivated I guess, or reporting back on me.

during one of my patrols that was going sideways I kept being asked which BN I was from... tsk, tsk, tsk... from my grader to prod me into getting my idiots back on track.

the biggest feedback I remember getting was negative, or I got ignored. I was cool with ignored. negative just meant to me I was blade running on that grade.

what we learned from RIs was phase/geographic adaptations to SOPs/TTPs. maybe weaker students learned more. maybe Pre-Ranger wired us right.... I don't know.

I learned more from other students. Batt Boys are/were spoiled in a lot of ways, and specialized beyond the average 11B. I had conventional dudes from Scout PLTs how were smarter by far in some other things like CFF... they had a broader, more generalist skill set, and we were light INF masters comparatively. and other MOSs brought real knowledge from very disparate fields than batt boys had.

leadership? nah... didn't really learn that there, we came with what we used. it did reinforce some things we already knew, taught us not to trust others as much though... trust but verify...

my experience anyway.
A Co & HHC 3/75 '93-'98.
RS 10-94.


200 meters of green shit next to a river in the desert does not qualify as a "Crescent of Fertility" -me

"The meek shall inherit the earth, one meter wide and two meters long" -Lazarus Long
User avatar
Disinfertention
Ranger/Admin
Posts: 2734
Joined: August 13th, 2003, 3:51 pm
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Ranger School Is Not A Leadership School

Post by Disinfertention »

I think I sit somewhere between KW and CM on this one. I got some good leadership points out of my time in the school. But I learned many other valuable lessons that had nothing to do with leadership.

I would call it a leadership school. Because that is primarily what you are graded on and being a shitty leader in school is going to get you no-go'd. Is that type or style of leadership used in school the same as what is/was used once I returned? No way. But I didn't do many dismounted patrols for days through the woods/swamps either.

I will agree with you KW that Batt boys get some preferential treatment. I got my Go in Mountains based on that and I'll never forget it.
USASOC 2015-2023
HHC 2/75 2012-2015
HHC & Cco 1/75 2010-2012
OCS Cadre 2007-2010
Cco 3/75 2003-2007
Ranger School 09-04
KW Driver
Ranger/Moderator
Posts: 6581
Joined: December 8th, 2004, 2:20 pm

Re: Ranger School Is Not A Leadership School

Post by KW Driver »

some preferential treatment yeah, but in graded positions I though in my PLT at least, we got harder looks and were generally held to a higher standard. that's my perception compared to watching others get some easy or easier goes. I didn't get a gimmie go in any phase. glad you got yours.

I'm not discounting I might have missed attempts to mentor and teach after academics.
A Co & HHC 3/75 '93-'98.
RS 10-94.


200 meters of green shit next to a river in the desert does not qualify as a "Crescent of Fertility" -me

"The meek shall inherit the earth, one meter wide and two meters long" -Lazarus Long
Post Reply

Return to “About Ranger School - In Honor of Ranger BattleBoar - RIP”