Is Combat making Ranger school unneccesary?

[rgrokelley]

Combat Making Ranger School Unnecessary?

http://www.military.com/news/article/co ... =army-a.nl

[Rangertom]

Actually it is even more necessary. Soldiers of ALL ranks think combat is driving in large sometimes overly armor vehicles, living on FOBs and calling in all sorts of assets to win a fight, and missions are typically short. OPORDs have all but died most units try to use a bastardized form of a CONOP to replace it. PCC/PCI’s are usually lacking. Fire and maneuver skills are severely deficient. Units go nuts when then can’t simple ask an air asset to destroy something or tell them where the enemy is.
I have seen some really …. Questionable stuff passes as tactics here at JRTC. Crossing LDAs without security UNDER A STREET LIGHT THREE TIMES. (I came out of my OC role and gave a class on crossing danger areas in the middle of force on force). No understanding of proper MOUT movement. Thinking the ‘ranger file’ is the best technique for moving in wide open terrain during the day when contact is expected. Sector sketches have to be pried out of some units and the ones that do them look like something my daughter drew in preschool. Field craft has gone to hell etc etc etc. All of that is without the stress of sleep and food deprivation and being graded.
I personally believe combat is a skill level 1 and 2 task. The unit that masters skill level 1 and 2 will destroy any enemy unit it comes in contact with. I understand some of this is not new. But low ‘intensity warfare’ has not helped it has hurt the fundamentals.
I have seen OEF/OIF/FSO rotations and multiple units Leg/mec/abn here at JRTC. Some better than others none are a T at even most skill level 1&2 tasks.
I would recommend that deploying unit in effect go through a sort of pre ranger as a BN.
$0.02

[MarineRanger]

Good article ... I think this post in the comments section was a good analysis. .... except I believe RS is more than just a "combat simulator".


" The article is a little vague but I guess it's saying there are too few senior or junior NCO's volunteering for Ranger School? And that the reason they aren't is 1) they feel they've already proven themselves in real world combat and 2) they don't want to spend another 61 days away from family between deployments?
Well, no duh.
As terrific a tradition and leadership challenge as it is, Ranger School has always been a "combat simulator." We've been in real combat for the last 9 years. It's no shock troops don't feel the same need to earn a tab as "proof" of their ability as they did in the 90's. "

[Richard Cranium]

RS is not the be all end all. I think most of us would agree with that; however, it IS the military's pre-eminent LEADERSHIP course.

Where do you need more competent, confident, seasoned leaders than in ACTUAL COMBAT?

[fatboy]

There lies the problem- there are several Soldiers, several Leaders even, that have been to combat, most of them numerous times, and have taken the fight to the shitheads continuously and effectively. That in their minds validates the mentality of fuck the Tab, its a bunch of bullshit. Why go back to high school when you already have a college degree right?
In my not so expert opinion, the value of Ranger School doesn't become apparent until several years later when you have some perspective on it. That's when you gain the most lessons from it- whether that lesson was how long can you perform with out rest to how can I motivate others when I'm dragging ass myself and everything in between. But unless RS can figure out a way to stay current on everything as well as impart something to the studs going through it, it will continue to become less and less relevant while real bullets are flying. Once the shooting stops though, there will be an upswing in guys wanting to attend, because it will revert back to being the measuring stick of combat skill.

[MarineRanger]

From a Special Ops training perspective, I thought it was excellent and would recommend if you plan to move into those kind of operations.

It teaches you how, you react to extreme exhaustion, starvation, and sleep deprivation. It gives you an opportunity to train yourself to master those instinctual drives, to be able to ignore them instead of having them, rule you.

My 8th and 9th patrols were the very last two of the class ... so I think I got a little 'extra' in that area. And if you want to make sure you get them, all you have to do is screw up real bad.

[panthersix]

I thought the purpose of all "pre-combat" training is to try to reduce the need for "combat experience" to create a more effective and thus more survivable combat force. I think a better question would be whether or not qualification badges and tabs should be eliminated except for dress uniforms.

[MarineRanger]

Panthersix,

My perspective may have been skewed, but it did seem to me that most people were in Ranger School for the wrong reasons. It seemed the majority were NOT there for the training, but only to get points towards promotions. And the whole process appeared to be quite politicized.

And I know one officer was there simply because Dolonega was his hometown, and he wanted the free airplane ride to visit family. What a waste of a slot.

I'm sure you're aware Marine Corp regs already disallow the wearing of the Tab on all marine uniforms. They are extremely strict about any service specific awards, and non U.S. awards too.

I'm not sure if a similar policy of no patches, etc. on BDUs, would be a plus or a minus for the Army. Maybe they could make it "optional" first. It would be interesting to see what would happen.

[Roster#253]

I can only speak to my own experience, but having RS under my belt as a field artillery officer being assigned to an airborne infantry company as an FSO was invaluable. Its more than just the premiere leadership school of the armed forces, it allowed me, and I have to imagine other like me without an infantry background, to hit the ground running when we showed up to our manuever units and do our jobs that much more efficiently.

[LJ_602]

There are alot of guys with the book ends (patches on both sleves) and a CIB and have a bad attitude about Ranger School. They figure they don't need it because they have been to combat and did just fine. But I see the guys with it do more and move harder and further than the guys without it, regardless of combat or not. They are always more motivated. Like one of my section leaders now. Brought in a Ranger Tab flag and paddles he bought in Florida. Everyone makes fun of him for it, but he is on top of everything and strives for combat readiness.

I havn't been in gound combat yet, but as a leader my tabbed guys are always my best guys. I know there are some turds that graduate from Ranger School, but atleast they are motivated turds.

And when you go to a board and they have 10 slots and 20 guys, who do you pick? Well who had a tab?

[centermass]

Bumping this necro post after reading a few of the very same thoughts. He said it better than I could.

I was in Ranger Battalion and in Special Forces. I went to HALO school, attended the high-speed civilian driving and shooting schools. They were fun, but not nearly as important as the basic Infantry tactics that you learn in Ranger School. Mastering the basics is far more important for soldiering than the fun training that you see on television or in the movies. Enlisted and Junior NCO’s should be fighting each other hand over feet for a Ranger School slot.

No, I don’t think that a Ranger tab is the end all be all. Neither is a combat badge. For a lot of folks, it is a five-letter fashion statement on their uniform and that’s the wrong answer. It doesn’t make you better than anyone else, it makes you better trained, and when things get ugly in combat, fellow soldiers are going to be looking to you for a decision.

Think about it.

Link

[Jim]

Many years ago, I was a SSG with a Vietnamese Ranger Battalion. I spent 17 months in the unit -- we went to Cambodia. I went through OCS and after Jump refresher, started Ranger School. Did the mountains twice, pinched a nerve. When I graduate, the Mountain camp commander, LTC Moose Yon said "jim, which is wrrse-Viet-Nam or Ranger School?" My answer was"Ranger school, if you fuck up in Viet-Nam, you die--if you fuck up in Ranger School, they make you do it again."

[Worldweaver]

if you fuck up in Viet-Nam, you die--if you fuck up in Ranger School, they make you do it again."

Hahaha, well put Sir...I hope the LTC found the humor in it.

[Jim]

if you fuck up in Viet-Nam, you die--if you fuck up in Ranger School, they make you do it again."

Hahaha, well put Sir...I hope the LTC found the humor in it.

He told the story many times.

[hobbit]

Just lurking...